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 Post subject: Grad school
PostPosted: Fri 12-11-2009 3:46PM 
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Hi.

I'm relatively new around here (this is my second year), and I've noticed the strong grad school population at this school. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing with my life, and as part of that I'm considering grad school. So, since I haven't even taken a grad school class, let alone been a grad student, I was wondering if grad school is any good/fun/right for me. In particular, I guess, I'm thinking about computer engineering or computer science for myself, but most graduate STEM stuff would probably have similar practices. I realize I have no experience so my guesses are just that: guesses. I'm also guessing that everyone around here only has experience with here, and things might be pretty different elsewhere.


Anyway, the important stuff:
What's it like? I know you take fewer classes (9 hours, 12 at most?), but you also might (do you have to? If you want can you?) teach (lower) level classes.

What's the work/class-load like? Is there multiple choice in grad school?
Is there "normal" homework, or is it all research and projects? Are there exams?

Do you go in knowing what your degree-project will be, or can you get in without a clue about it, aside from the department/advisor? I know if you're looking for grants/funding, often, the more specific your research is, the better your chances of getting funding. Is funding/grant support necessary?

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Grad school
PostPosted: Fri 12-11-2009 5:13PM 
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My fiance is in grad school now. She just started at Baylor this semester in a phd social psychology program, but I can relay some basic facts/ideas

For one, the difficulty level of grad school classes is significantly higher than undergrad. The classes are hardcore "know everything" classes and you'll likely be in classes with other people from your department. When Lindsey (fiance) was talking with other grad students in her department, they said that feeling hopeless and having a constant fear of dropping out was pretty standard for starting grad students, so the classes are no cakewalk. I think you can only fail one or two classes before they kick you out of the program there, but it may be different elsewhere.

The lab that she's teaching is a pretty simple one. She just teaches out of the book and adds a little here and there. She enjoys it, but just remember that you have to grade other ppl's stuff, and most of the time kids are dumb. She had to grade a number of fifteen page (minimum) papers, and she was surprised at how poorly some people write. I guess the moral here is expect stupidity.

In terms of research, I'm pretty out of the loop. I know she just presented her idea to some board, but it was just to get the departments permission...(?) I would imagine that the financial thing would vary between programs and schools, so I won't really go on about it.

If anything, I would recommend talking with your advisor. He or she would know more about grad school programs in your field for sure.

Hope this helps
It's been a while since Lindsey's posted here, but I'll try to get her to post some of her thoughts on the subject

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 Post subject: Re: Grad school
PostPosted: Fri 12-11-2009 9:58PM 
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Thanks,

I found that information helpful, as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Grad school
PostPosted: Fri 12-11-2009 10:53PM 
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Thank you. That was helpful.

More would be nice though...

Advisors unfortunately cannot give current reviews of grad school from a student's perspective, which is most of what I'm looking for. So, while their information may be helpful, it's also from hindsight/a voyeuristic perspective (outside looking in). Hindsight may be 20/20, but it also has cataracts. Memory is very subjective and open to suggestion.


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 Post subject: Re: Grad school
PostPosted: Sat 12-12-2009 4:40AM 
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I'm in grad school. Did undergrad and masters at S&T and now doing phd at A&M (I love schools with the & I guess) so I also get to toss in the difference of a small school vs one of the biggest schools. I'll start off with the universal things I've seen everywhere.

-It is possible to fail out of graduate school. S&T has a limit of 10 credit hours of C grades before they tell you to go home. D does not exist. If you can't make a C, you get an F. If you dropped classes in undergrad, don't bother with grad school. If you've never dropped a class or come close to it, you'll probably be fine. The minimum enrollment is 9 hours but you'll find out this concept doesn't really mean anything because it depends on the research hours. About 1/3 of my masters was research hours so if I was taking hard classes I would take 2 classes and 3 hours of research. Think of research hours as placeholders. You can do research and write a thesis with these hours, you can devote more time to those hard classes, or you can take a trip across the country. They just won't give you the degree until you get the thesis written which brings me to the next point.

-You can take a week off without anyone really noticing. I had all 2 of my classes this semester on T-Th so I had 5 days off each week. Scheduling appointments during business hours becomes real easy. Grad school is probably the only opportunity (unless you start your own business) where you aren't required to be at a particular place for more than a few hours each week. If you need to you can plug in crazy hours one week and skate the next but most grad students settle into the 9-5 thing for normal operating hours.

-classes range to anywhere in format just like undergrad. One class just had 3 big papers to write. Most are pretty similar to undergrad format and professors tend to use the same formats for all of their classes. Some are harder in the fact that the test questions are written in a way that makes partial credit not possible so there really is no middle class in terms of grades. You either get 90+ or below 70 on most tests. The good news is that grad grades are severely distorted to the A and B variety. If you do make it to the end without horribly failing or dropping the class professors will try real hard to give only A and B because they know the rule about the evil C grade also.

-There are 3 groups that have hoops that you have to jump through to graduate. The office of graduate studies, your department, and your advisor. I found the office of graduate studies to be pretty reasonable at S&T as far as requirements. As long as you get your forms in on time and submit your thesis in a coherent fashion, they play along. At A&M the office of graduate studies starts blocking your registration if you don't have your forms in and checks thesis format like nazis. The department also sets requirements such as which classes you have to take and any exams you must pass. Both departments I've been at require a phd qualifying exam. You have to take a 9 hour long test over 3 days which covers all material taught in undergrad. Think of it like all your major classes finals back to back for nine days. You have 2 chances to pass this test which is given once a semester. If you do not pass by the second attempt you will not be allowed to obtain a phd even if you have already taken all your phd classes. Pack your bags, you may leave the island type thing. On one hand, the material is easy as someone that has just graduated with their BS could pass it, but the problem is that you have to test over all aspects of your degree material and you only have 2 chances. They don't have that type of edge in undergrad where you pass or go home.

Out of all 3 of those groups your advisor is your most important choice and also your committee makes up who really determines your life for a few years. For masters, you get to pick most of your classes but for phd classes are a free for all. I can make a degree out of underwater basket weaving classes if I can get my advisor (and committee) to agree to it. You want to be cool with your advisor and by cool I don't mean, "Good morning Dr. X, how are you today?" I mean somewhere near drinking buddy level. Like a spouse you want someone that sees the world your way and shares your values. You want someone that goes for just about every idea that you think of. To prevent your advisor from drunkenly approving you for all underwater basket weaving classes you are required to have a committee of 2-5ish other people. They review what you and your advisor decide and sign off on it. The choice of advisor and committee can range anywhere from a kickball team type selection of, "I'll take you" to the political complexities of an international UN meeting. Your selection may also depend upon your funding, in which case you may have no choice but if you do have a choice, never take suggestions for advisors at face value, trust no one, and shop around. If you get a third party fellowship, you really got a bargaining chip and you can get as picky as you want almost. Talking to your current advisor isn't always the best idea in the world as they have an agenda to get students for themselves and raise research money. Talking to people who have nothing to gain by getting you such as professors who are so old they don't take anymore students, or people who do research so far from your interests that they won't even bother recruiting you are good people to talk to.

Funding gets funny in gradland. If you work it right, you will derive a net outflux of funds from the university instead of paying them. From grad students I've seen, you get it from your parents, your trust fund, your previous job (usually non-traditional students coming back for another degree), TA job, research grant, or fellowship. That's usually standard across schools and departments.

You get an office most of the time. It allows you a base of operations of sorts so you don't have to run home for 2 hours to nap, eat, stuff like that.

If you have a TA job, you get paid to teach classes. I did this at S&T and it was nice because I loved the classes I taught, which depend on your department. It can be anywhere from paper grader all the way up to pretty much running the class, all the way from freshmen 1 hour introductory classes, all the way up to running your own core senior class. Some departments let you hand pick your own and some just assign. My senior class wasn't dumb at all. I could pretty much throw everything I had at them and they were able to throw it back pretty good. With the freshmen class, it was a real introductory class, so they didn't even have a chance to be dumb.

If you get a research grant (usually through department) or fellowship (usually third party paying for you), you get paid to do research, which means you get paid to get your degree. Doesn't really get much better than that. They usually come with a condition that you have to carry out the research doing what they want and possibly going to their facility each summer to do it. The good part, you have a summer job lined up for the next 3-5 years solid. The bad part, you got a summer job lined up for the next 3-5 long years.

As far as research, it's just a long paper that's really detailed. Think of it like a really formatted lab report, except the lab took longer than 1 class period or week. If you got the research grant or fellowship, you're set. If you get the money from your department to do research you just have to do what your advisor tells you to do. If you get the third party fellowship you do what the fellowship says and your advisor (if they are smart) usually goes along with the flow and pipes down a little. The goal is to get the money as closely aligned with what you want to do no matter where the money comes from.

As far as size differences, I find it doesn't make a difference. At S&T, departments were tiny and as such I was one of few grad students in my department so I pretty much knew the entire department faculty and most of the undergrad. At A&M, I know very little undergrad students since I don't teach any classes but the graduate class sizes are actually pretty comparable since graduate engineering at any university isn't jam packed. I never have or never will have to worry about classes filling up or anything.

As far as the even ratio, it doesn't actually matter too much. I mean yes there is something to the fact that you can be running on the track all alone in the rec center when 100+ women take a break from their cardio class and converge on the track all at once but they all aren't always that bright compared to most Rolla ladies. The good news is that unlike the ladies of Rolla, all of the smart women don't have guys drooling and fawning all over them, making the chances slightly better.

One also important note worth mentioning is that every year that you are in grad school, the people that graduated with you are out there making the paper. Of course it was a no brainer to go to college instead of a job after high school since you'd make all that up within a few years and easily surpass the high schooler but your BS brethren aren't exactly bums here. They're getting promoted and making the dough too and they have a few years head start. Someone once showed me the math and if you get a masters at 2 years, you usually break even with a BS 2-5 years later. If you get a phd, you usually break even sometime in your late 30s to early 40s. If you have to pay for grad school, it could take longer to break even and there is also the possibility that you don't break even with the alternate version of yourself that didn't pursue grad school. If the type of job that I wanted didn't require it, I wouldn't still be here. Don't do it for the money. It isn't worth it.

I think I've covered just about everything I could think of grad school. Hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Grad school
PostPosted: Sat 12-12-2009 1:07PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Grad school
PostPosted: Sat 12-12-2009 10:25PM 
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As el_lorenzo said, I'm at Baylor in a Social Psychology PhD program. I was actually lucky enough to follow my adviser to Baylor and she's now my mentor. Your mentor plays a significant role. So, before you apply, do your research and pick someone who has the same research interests as you. I would highly recommend not doing a phone interview (if given the chance) and actually go visit the campus and meet you that individual. Meeting them in person will give you an idea if you'd be able to get along and work well with them. I would also make sure you find someone who is willing to put their students on papers. I know in my field, it's all about how many articles you can publish.

I am allowed to take 9 credit hours a semester, 2/3 are your run of the mill classes and the other 1/3 is research/thesis/dissertation hours. I love the research, but I absolutely hate the classes. I find my classes to be a slight waste of time. They are ridiculously difficult and sometimes impossible. This semester, in both of my classes, I've had two tests and one final. Many of the students fail the tests. In my program, if you get a C, you're put on probation. If you get two Cs, you're out. Like Agentzak said, anything below a C is a F. However, grades do not matter, unless you are applying for a grant. No one is ever going to look at your grades because they do not go on your CV. Your main goal in graduate school is to keep your grades as As and Bs and publish publish publish.

This semester I have had to teach only one lab. I've never taught before and there was no training, just threw me in the deep end. However, it wasn't that hard of a class (Research Methods Lab), so I just taught them how to use SPSS (statistical program) and write an APA paper. I would highly recommend teaching. It's a great experience and if you're wanting to get into academia one day, you'll need to have the experience. I personally love it. However, I can now sympathize with professors who have to grade labs and papers. It is very time consuming. I know for Baylor you have to have to teach six hours per academic year to qualify for benefits (health insurance), so next semester I'll have to add two more labs.

I do not have anytime to slack off. My fellow grad students and I are constantly busy and do not have much of a social life. Every now and then we meet for happy hour after a test and complain, but that's about it. A typical day for me is from about 9am to about 5pm (when I'm lucky) or 8pm (when I'm swamped). However, my work doesn't end in my lab. I usually have to come home and study for my classes and complete homework. However, I'm a little head of the game. Next semester I'll be presenting my thesis prospectus and will start collecting data. Usually, grad students do not do this until their 3rd or even 4th semester.

I came into grad school without having a slight idea of what I wanted to do for my thesis. I do not think it is a must, but it will always help in your interview. I would at least have some sort of idea (you don't have to go through with it), so you'll sound like you know what you want. Most graduate students do not follow through with their original ideas anyway.

I was always told that you should not have to pay for grad school and I will agree with this. I get a nice $19,000 stipend, plus all my classes paid for for the next 5 years. However, I am not on a grant, that is why I TA. If you are on a grant then you just do research and do not teach. Some people think that this is better (my mentor for example), but I love to teach!

I touched on this previously, but life as a graduate student is quite different than life as an undergraduate. In some ways it is better. For example, I'm free to come and go as I please and I have much more independence. However, I have a lot more responsibility and everyone excepts a lot more out of me. The classes are relatively small and professors know if you're lagging behind. They also have a pretty good sense of how much research you're doing. You cannot just "get by" or hide in the background and you need a lot of self-discipline. If you do just "get by", don't expect to last long. The program will not fund someone who looks like they aren't going anywhere.

Also, since I graduated with a B.S. in Psychology in three years and went directly into a PhD program, I am the baby of the program. Many of the grad students are in their late 20s and 30s and many of them have families and kids. I've found that I do not have a lot in common with most of them. This also does not help the social life. Grad programs are usually quite small, there were only three new graduate students this year. One was in a completely different psychology program than me and the other was a Social Psy, but already had a Masters. Therefore, I've been quite alone in my transition. I hope, if you decide to go, you will not be alone. It will be very beneficial for you to have a social network.

I think I have answered most of your questions. If you have anymore, I'll be more than happy to help or to clarify. Even though I was slightly negative, I would greatly encourage grad school.


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 Post subject: Re: Grad school
PostPosted: Sun 12-13-2009 1:32PM 
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That was incredibly helpful.
Thank you very much.
This has already gotten more information that I expected it to...

So, when you're going to grad school there's a marked difference between those going for masters vs phd's? I would have expected the difference between the social groups of phds vs masters to be similar to the social difference between... maybe freshmen and juniors or seniors.

What's the likelihood of your classes to relate to your research? Once you're in grad school, I understand that you're specifying a lot, so it'd be pretty easy to have a class that didn't have anything to do with your area. I guess that's probably how you choose your school: if the school has a strong program in the specific area you're interested in, then you go there and can take classes related to what you want to research...

Anyone care to talk about CS/CpE grad school in particular?


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 Post subject: Re: Grad school
PostPosted: Sun 12-13-2009 7:19PM 
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As Lin-z said you can't get lost in the background. I've been in small classes, usually 11. One time I did a class with only 5 people. Be expected to be called on just about every class because you can't hide.

There is also no real distinction between masters and phd classes, they're just all graduate classes, although as a phd you are expected to take more of the crazy (and I mean batshit insane crazy) classes. There are no phd only classes though, there's just some classes that are almost all phd (because their advisor made them) and the few idiot masters students who signed up for it because they're that dumb or they like like pain. The difference between the required classes is different though. As I said, in masters you have a somewhat more prescribed classes, but you can specify to some degree. Masters to feel felt like half of an extension of general undergrad knowledge and half specification since I still had to take some classes that were in my degree but not really my particular cup of tea. In phd, take anything you want.

Surprisingly, the difference between phd and masters social groups is non existent. When I did masters, I started hanging out with the phds who TA my classes and now that I'm a phd I actually hang out with a masters that I used to TA who also came to A&M as a masters. There is an age difference. Masters are mostly composed of fresh college graduates so the age range is 22-25. For phd there are some that continued on right from masters but there are significantly more that came back from a job, so the age range for phd is 22-40ish for my program but for other programs I've seen the median age to be in the 30s. It's similar to the working world where you have a whole spread of ages.

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