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 Post subject: Possible engineer project/My current project smelter furnace
PostPosted: Fri 02-06-2009 10:18PM 
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ive been doing lots of research in one thing which led me to another and now ive come to this. after sitting reading over some of the technical data i can barely see straight at the moment. so i thought id post it here. wanting help in deciding if these ideas are capable of possibly actually working. mostly i was looking at the tesla switch and hydroxy booster technology. also i figured that engineers down here get bored and are sitting around not doing anything and so look for projects to build. so far these are being built off of Tesla's work, some others, and now being developed by open source engineers. so i thought some of you could help contribute. along with maybe handing some of this to the different teachers. anyway heres the link http://www.panaceauniversity.org/ i forget now that ive gone on in this if you need to go on youtube or other sites as well for information to build them. you'll probably find it all in the pdfs tho.
the other site actually links to 3. http://www.runyourcarswithwater.com/ its about adding a device to help run the combustion of your engine by using water. i kind of stopped when it said to buy instructions. although from a news report about a police department in california or something its sounds like that hydroxy booster technology. so if anyone can get their hands on the details to build one to test it id probably be up for that task, or anyone have any knowledge on this already.

note to mods wasnt sure where else to put this so figured this was the closet thing to put it in.


Last edited by whohaw15 on Thu 03-05-2009 12:09PM, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Sat 02-07-2009 12:17AM 
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As far as running cars with water, if you're talking about HHO, there's no money in it except in marketing to the uneducated masses who think it works. I'm not disputing that you can make an electrolytic reaction to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. You just don't get ahead by doing it. On a small scale you spend much more in hardware than you save in gas. Not to mention if you're doing an HHO conversion onto a car (rather than designing a hydrogen car with a built-in hydrogen regenerator) you start things going crazy if you're not careful. I've watched one guy replace three car batteries in three months because his hydrolyzer is 3/4" of stripped 12-ga primary wire on each side of a 4" PVC pipe half full of water, hooked directly to his battery. He's not getting any sort of electrolysis to speak of, he's just constantly shorting his battery. The hydrogen that IS released comes out through a 1/2" heater hose from the "fuel cell" to a breather port on his throttle body injection system on his POS 2.2L Cavalier. Oh yeah, I'm SURE it's making a shitton of difference with no forced flow and the gases produced wafting slowly into your throttle body at atmospheric pressure. Right.

Complete morons aside, if you solve all these problems there's still the little matter about paying Mr. Newton. Let's follow the steps, shall we? First, torque off the driveline gets converted into electricity at the alternator, at a pretty fair efficiency, upwards of 90%. That electricity goes into the water reactor, where the energy dissipated in the resistive load at the reactor gets spent breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen for some amount close to the heat of formation of water. How efficient is this process? Entirely dependent on reactor design, maybe 80% in a good setup. Somehow that hydrogen has to get transferred to the intake, and some power is spent pumping a gas to the intake. We won't account for that now because that's entirely dependent on the design, maybe it gets Venturi'd straight into the throttle body, maybe you have a smog pump converted over to do that for you. In any case, once you get it to the intake and into the engine, the hydrogen burns, creating heat; that heat gets transferred into shaft work at a rate of about 30-35%. All that hard work and you get about 20% of the "free" heat in hydrogen turned into work energy at the shaft at your favorite engine.

Put another way, you're taking water, breaking it apart into hydrogen and oxygen, burning it (thus putting hydrogen and oxygen back together) and leaving water as your combustion product. How does this leave you with more energy than you started with?

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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Sat 02-07-2009 1:10AM 
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thx bagvwf for pointing that out for me. i havent had thermo and theres another class on the tip of my tongue that i think applies to this. anyway i knew someone knew it right of the top of their head. so thank you for that info.
anyone else going to try out some of the other projects at panaceauniversity.com ? or have anything to add to what bagvwf said?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Sat 02-07-2009 8:15AM 
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Note: I haven't looked at those links yet.
Electrolyzing ionized water to separate it is unfortunately not an amazingly efficient process given that it takes such high voltages to break it up. Other than that, I'd have to pretty close to completely agree with bagvwf.

peace

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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Sat 02-07-2009 10:11AM 
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I'm designing and building a .22 semiautomatic rifle for my project. I don't like any of the available models, mostly because of poor ergonomics or high cost. So I'm making one out of cotton/epoxy phenolic with steel inserts.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Sat 02-07-2009 2:13PM 
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the naked prophet wrote:
I'm designing and building a .22 semiautomatic rifle for my project. I don't like any of the available models, mostly because of poor ergonomics or high cost. So I'm making one out of cotton/epoxy phenolic with steel inserts.

So are you just making the butt/body of the gun out of a resin and putting in a the workings of another gun? or are you actually going to build the whole thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Sat 02-07-2009 3:03PM 
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naked has got me curious now. so ill ask is this project from some site, if its yours r you documenting it, and posting it here or somewhere either during or after? last one i can think of is you making a 3d model first or just hand drawing?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Sun 02-08-2009 4:06PM 
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Phenolic = stinky and cancerous. But it would make a really light gun barrel.

I'm only really familiar with phenolics as they pertain to thermoset plastic making (Bakelite and the such). Those are really brittle and non-deforming--is that similar to what's going on in your gun? How well does that really handle the sudden pressure loading of a burning gas charge? (Don't misinterpret me, I'm not skeptical, I'm intrigued.)

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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Sun 02-08-2009 10:26PM 
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bagvwf wrote:
Phenolic = stinky and cancerous. But it would make a really light gun barrel.

I'm only really familiar with phenolics as they pertain to thermoset plastic making (Bakelite and the such). Those are really brittle and non-deforming--is that similar to what's going on in your gun? How well does that really handle the sudden pressure loading of a burning gas charge? (Don't misinterpret me, I'm not skeptical, I'm intrigued.)


For a gun barrel, you want something that will bend long before it breaks. If the sudden pressure from the detonation of a projectile charge is enough to burst the barrel, you are looking at some nasty injuries in your face. For more related information, research "Damascus Barrels" in relation to shotguns.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Mon 02-09-2009 10:23AM 
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bagvwf wrote:
Put another way, you're taking water, breaking it apart into hydrogen and oxygen, burning it (thus putting hydrogen and oxygen back together) and leaving water as your combustion product. How does this leave you with more energy than you started with?


No, see, the oil companies, and...conspiracy...and...and hopechange, and, um....renewable energy and stuff.

On a serious note, this is what happens when you let kids take crap like sociology and "peace studies" instead of physics, math, and chemistry. They don't learn that you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't leave the game. Then they wind up in think tanks or on political campaigns, and they fall for every dopey "alternative energy" proposal under the sun.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Mon 02-09-2009 11:05AM 
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For the questions about the gun I'm building (which might really be its own thread, once I get it going):

There's no design that I'm working off of. I'm starting basically from scratch. I want to base the operation on the AK platform (roughly, since I can do straight blowback instead of rotation locking bolt and piston operated bolt carrier) mostly because it's very easy to clean. Also, a heavier bolt with longer bolt travel should be a bit more robust than a light bolt that has to move very fast to keep up its momentum. However, the ergonomics will be improved (safety and magazine release usable without taking hand off the grip, bolt handle accessible to left hand, etc.)

Phenolic is a broad term for any fiber impregnated with a resin that reacts to form a composite material. I guess I'm using more of a composite than a phenolic, but in industry a lot of folks use phenolic for both, which is where I picked it up (I just looked it up and yes, I was using it wrong). I'm just using cotton impregnated with fiberglass resin from the auto parts store.

The only part of the gun I'm making from composite is the receiver. The receiver is the part of the gun that holds all the other parts together, like the bolt, trigger/hammer parts, barrel, etc.

The barrel is a standard steel barrel that I got for cheap because the gun itself was destroyed.

The trigger/hammer parts are from a Ruger 10/22 rifle. People frequently upgrade those parts, and the originals are basically free. Also, using the fire control parts from an existing rifle means I don't have to worry about my gun accidentally being a machine gun, and spending time in club fed. I know it'll be semiautomatic, because the trigger and hammer parts are all in a single drop-in housing, and there's no way I can make it full auto.

I'll be using existing magazines from another gun, because magazines are really hard to make without sheet metal bending equipment, and even then are very difficult to get right - and require specially shaped springs.

And yes, I will document the process. Probably over the summer when I don't have a TA job.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Mon 02-09-2009 12:16PM 
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bagvwf wrote:
On a serious note, this is what happens when you let kids take crap like sociology and "peace studies" instead of physics, math, and chemistry. They don't learn that you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't leave the game. Then they wind up in think tanks or on political campaigns, and they fall for every dopey "alternative energy" proposal under the sun.

Hey now, I'm propagating that crap so that I can have a job. I don't need ceo's to understand the implications, just to give me money to research what I love :D .

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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Wed 02-25-2009 11:13PM 
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Ok well I haven't made anything in quite awhile now so kind of going crazy. First off I think I'm going to try and build a furnace with all attachments and parts. Note that I'm saying furnace in reference to something like our foundry where we can melt aluminum. Would like to work up to steel at some point, I'm not sure but I think I need some sort of injection system for molds when working with steel, at least one forum or something I read that, someone here can probably clear that up though. before I go any further if anyone knows of any shops, work spaces, etc that have welding equipment, furnace(s), and/or metal working tools that would allow for someone to come in and use please let me know as getting these parts may take a bit of time and I would like to cast something besides a list of other things and the furnace will probably take me a little while to get parts to build it. Anyways I'm trying to finalize which design that I'm going to pursue. So I was asking for any input anyone might have. Now I've been looking at http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/ and planning on my build using some of their examples. Besides the knowledge that I got from the Mechanical Engineering 153 class I think it was, I need to dig out my book.

So in no particular order here are some questions. They keep talking about melting soda and beer cans down for their aluminum but isn’t there other material in them? Such as zinc, paint, tin, adhesive, etc? What would be the best build for a crucible, if just working with iron on down, would a steel crucible work or does it need a lining of some sort? They say that iron or steel crucible some of the iron will break off and mix with the aluminum (I just saw it I was thinking this would happen), so they use a ceramic crucible. Any ideas on where, how to make it, or if the ceramic depart might be able to help make one? Any suggestions for making the greensand used for melding? Mix for the refractory used to line the furnace? Is there a ratio to the thickness and depth of the refractory used in the furnace? I was planning on making a waste oil burner to fuel it. Any ideas on it? The one in the foundry is heat by electric coils wrapped around to create induction? What would be a good speed for a muller? Are there some laws I need to look into anyone know? Will the rust and oxidization burn off or contaminate the melt? Is there a way to remove it? Would an ingot be best as steel welded together to form a gold bar like shape or ceramic be better? Any ideas for making permanent molds (like the ones we used for the paperweight and ashtray)?

I guess that's it for the moment. I'll edit if I can think of more. You know I spent a few days after researching and I still don't like the wording I used. Gah. Anyway I was looking for any ideas, input, personal opinion, etc for this project I want to do. Also I'd like to hear from anyone that may have their own, possibly be able to come and talk with you about it. Since I don't really like to waste material I end up being very apprehensive to starting and trying anything. Here is a link to a list of parts that I am looking for and think I need. http://seek42.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21000&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a if you see anything missing or think it might be useful in having please feel free to let me know.

Edit: edited. Sorry about that naked prophet. Guess I was getting kind of lazy. Also sorry to anyone else that couldn't read it or were irritated by the lack of proper text. Hopefully you find this a little better. Although the forum wont read tab either hitting it or copy/paste from word and it just completely ignored the spaces I put to look like a tab so hope that will do.


Last edited by whohaw15 on Fri 02-27-2009 12:59PM, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible projects for engineers
PostPosted: Fri 02-27-2009 8:58AM 
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Can we get some paragraphs there chief? Cause I'm not going to try to decode that. Some punctuation, spelling, and capitalization would help too.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible engineer project/My current project smelter furnace
PostPosted: Thu 03-12-2009 11:19PM 
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Ok so no answers to most of these, well dad was talking and he is pretty sure the foundry is induction like it was when he was there. So guess I'll be making a stop by the foundry to speak to someone or take another look to refresh my memory. It would help even more if they were maybe taking it apart for cleaning or maintenance and i got a chance to look at it. Also if I can get this running I kind of was toying with the idea of having a Rolla or Seek42 themed casts that I'd make available. Might depend tho on the help I get.... lol just kidding if I do their will be no prejudice. Except for the chancellor. Still mighty pissed.


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