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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 5:00AM 
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berto wrote:
I'm pretty much with TNP. To say that the victim is never at fault is naive and childish. Everyone puts themselves in the situations they encounter. You obviously can't completely avoid rape and sometimes the victim is not at fault, but you increase your odds of avoiding by not getting wasted at a random party around people you don't or even do know.

Basically, it isn't always the case that the victim made bad choices, but sometimes it is. That is also not to say they have it coming when they do make bad decisions, but they should have been more responsible.


This is the kind of logic that will gaurantee even more crime bulletins sent to my email next St. Pat's.

There are people who prey on this concept. Just like people will prey on 12 year olds, others will prey on drunk chicks. It's a community effort to prevent this from happening. This is our community here, and every chance we have to root out the bastards we must take! It's so easy to blame the girl for being drunk though, isn't it? Jealous you probably are.


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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 8:08AM 
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Attack! Rat wrote:
berto wrote:
I'm pretty much with TNP. To say that the victim is never at fault is naive and childish. Everyone puts themselves in the situations they encounter. You obviously can't completely avoid rape and sometimes the victim is not at fault, but you increase your odds of avoiding by not getting wasted at a random party around people you don't or even do know.

Basically, it isn't always the case that the victim made bad choices, but sometimes it is. That is also not to say they have it coming when they do make bad decisions, but they should have been more responsible.


This is the kind of logic that will gaurantee even more crime bulletins sent to my email next St. Pat's.

There are people who prey on this concept. Just like people will prey on 12 year olds, others will prey on drunk chicks. It's a community effort to prevent this from happening. This is our community here, and every chance we have to root out the bastards we must take! It's so easy to blame the girl for being drunk though, isn't it? Jealous you probably are.


The community wouldn't have to deal with it if the chicks didn't get obliterated to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 9:22AM 
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You know, as much as I agree that the law is slanted against the male gender right now, it takes 2 to tango. Even if the girl is completely obliterated, a guy with an ounce of morale fiber should be able to tell that maybe now isn't the best time to just go for it. So, to quote berto:
berto wrote:
To say that the victim is never at fault is naive and childish.

Even when the victim is at fault, the responsibility of assuring consensual sex falls on both parties.

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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 2:17PM 
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Attack! Rat wrote:
This is the kind of logic that will gaurantee even more crime bulletins sent to my email next St. Pat's.

There are people who prey on this concept. Just like people will prey on 12 year olds, others will prey on drunk chicks. It's a community effort to prevent this from happening. This is our community here, and every chance we have to root out the bastards we must take! It's so easy to blame the girl for being drunk though, isn't it? Jealous you probably are.

You better re-read your logic as it is far more flawed than mine. I bet you're one of those people who blames musicians for all the bad things that happen to kids that listen to their music as opposed to the parents, aren't you? Because in your world, the victim party is NEVER to blame. But it's your type of thinking that will inevitably lead to more emails next St. Pats. Heaven forbid you hold people accountable for their actions. And to say that I'm jealous is really... wow. Childish? Dumb? I really hope you aren't as ignorant in real life as you are in this thread.

One more thing, how exactly do we remove these people from our community? It can be anyone, including your closest friends whom you SWEAR you know. I don't see this as possible unless we're in some shitty movie like Minority Report.


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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 2:19PM 
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berto wrote:
And to say that I'm jealous is really... wow. Childish? Dumb? I really hope you aren't as ignorant in real life as you are in every thread you post in.


Fixed.

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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 3:37PM 
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Well put berto.

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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 3:54PM 
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berto wrote:
Attack! Rat wrote:
This is the kind of logic that will gaurantee even more crime bulletins sent to my email next St. Pat's.

There are people who prey on this concept. Just like people will prey on 12 year olds, others will prey on drunk chicks. It's a community effort to prevent this from happening. This is our community here, and every chance we have to root out the bastards we must take! It's so easy to blame the girl for being drunk though, isn't it? Jealous you probably are.

You better re-read your logic as it is far more flawed than mine. I bet you're one of those people who blames musicians for all the bad things that happen to kids that listen to their music as opposed to the parents, aren't you? Because in your world, the victim party is NEVER to blame. But it's your type of thinking that will inevitably lead to more emails next St. Pats. Heaven forbid you hold people accountable for their actions. And to say that I'm jealous is really... wow. Childish? Dumb? I really hope you aren't as ignorant in real life as you are in this thread.

One more thing, how exactly do we remove these people from our community? It can be anyone, including your closest friends whom you SWEAR you know. I don't see this as possible unless we're in some shitty movie like Minority Report.

fwiw I loved Minority Report.

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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 8:11PM 
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berto wrote:
Attack! Rat wrote:
This is the kind of logic that will gaurantee even more crime bulletins sent to my email next St. Pat's.

There are people who prey on this concept. Just like people will prey on 12 year olds, others will prey on drunk chicks. It's a community effort to prevent this from happening. This is our community here, and every chance we have to root out the bastards we must take! It's so easy to blame the girl for being drunk though, isn't it? Jealous you probably are.

You better re-read your logic as it is far more flawed than mine. I bet you're one of those people who blames musicians for all the bad things that happen to kids that listen to their music as opposed to the parents, aren't you? Because in your world, the victim party is NEVER to blame. But it's your type of thinking that will inevitably lead to more emails next St. Pats. Heaven forbid you hold people accountable for their actions. And to say that I'm jealous is really... wow. Childish? Dumb? I really hope you aren't as ignorant in real life as you are in this thread.

One more thing, how exactly do we remove these people from our community? It can be anyone, including your closest friends whom you SWEAR you know. I don't see this as possible unless we're in some shitty movie like Minority Report.


To reiterate what everyone else has said leading up to this:
-I don't leave wads of cash on the dashboard of my car. Yes, it is illegal to break into my car and steal the cash... but I should still know better than to do that. I should act with safety in mind if I care about my wad of cash. Everyone will still call me a dumb idiot if I leave the cash out on the dash and it gets stolen... even though stealing is illegal.

-I don't walk through dark alleys in bad parts of town. Yes, it's illegal to mug me... but I should still know better than to do that. If I get mugged, people will still think I'm dumb for doing it - even though the crime was committed against me.

For the same reason that you shouldn't do the above, a girl shouldn't get very very drunk at a party where she doesn't have someone there to watch/protect her. Let me be very clear: it shouldn't reduce the criminality of rape, but it certainly does put a portion of the blame on her shoulders. I think most people here are going to agree with that.

The analogy gets fuzzy after this point though - putting a wad of cash on the dashboard doesn't make me say to criminals, "Come steal my cash" - it just makes it available. Getting really trashed on the other hand can make you say, "Yes". As a society, we've decided that the other party should know when that "Yes" shouldn't be taken literally. But it seems like a very difficult thing to prove fairly and reliably that in the given situation, the other party should have known that the "Yes" wasn't indeed a "Yes".

I got bored, the end.

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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 9:10PM 
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The guys get criminal charges that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.
The girls have to deal with the fact that their own dumbassery got them in some serious shit.
Everybody learned a tough lesson, and both are at fault.
Yeah, its horrible. That's life.
The girls here should know not to get shitfaced without someone they know and trust to make sure they get home. Seriously, that's it, common sense could have prevented all this. It's Rolla, aren't the people here supposed to be smart?


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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 9:13PM 
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Do we know they were shit-faced?

Just curious if you guys saw something I didn't.

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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 9:46PM 
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dannyboyfx wrote:
Do we know they were shit-faced?

Just curious if you guys saw something I didn't.


Good point. I just assumed those were the circumstances because if the girl wasn't completely trashed (maybe the guy was?), I would hope she'd defend herself. Personally, I have no problem with a knee to the crotch or elbow to the face if a guy pushes it too far. But hey, that's me.

Also, since all this occurred over St. Pats weekend, I figured it was relatively safe to assume alcohol was a major contributor.


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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 10:12PM 
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I believe the conversation swayed from the path of the St. Pats' incidents to more of a general who-is-to-blame topic...


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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Mon 03-23-2009 10:32PM 
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berto wrote:
I believe the conversation swayed from the path of the St. Pats' incidents to more of a general who-is-to-blame topic...

astute observation! Give this man a prize.

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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Tue 03-24-2009 8:03AM 
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firenza wrote:
dannyboyfx wrote:
Do we know they were shit-faced?

Just curious if you guys saw something I didn't.


Good point. I just assumed those were the circumstances because if the girl wasn't completely trashed (maybe the guy was?), I would hope she'd defend herself. Personally, I have no problem with a knee to the crotch or elbow to the face if a guy pushes it too far. But hey, that's me.

Also, since all this occurred over St. Pats weekend, I figured it was relatively safe to assume alcohol was a major contributor.



I agree. If the female victim was not drinking, there is only one good way for an attempted rape to turn out - she shoots him, and he dies on the spot. No rape, no lengthy trial, no debates over whether it's moral to execute a rapist.

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 Post subject: Re: No means no?
PostPosted: Tue 03-24-2009 10:51AM 
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the naked prophet wrote:
I agree. If the female victim was not drinking, there is only one good way for an attempted rape to turn out - she shoots him, and he dies on the spot. No rape, no lengthy trial, no debates over whether it's moral to execute a rapist.


Oh yeah, sounds like a fucking great plan. Let's all carry guns to parties, especially over St. Pat's. That doesn't sound like a recipe for disaster at all.

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The word "bi-partisan" usually means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out.


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