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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Thu 04-23-2009 4:50PM 
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I didnt see the preacher so back to subtopic 1

If you understand how statistics work, just because something has a 0 percent chance of happening doesn't mean it cant happen, nor does it say that if it happens that you should be surprised that it did. Just because a system is extremely complex that we cannot fully understand does not warrant a supreme being. Converse arguments are never enough proof or reason to believe something.

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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Thu 04-23-2009 10:01PM 
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LostBoyz wrote:
I didnt see the preacher so back to subtopic 1

If you understand how statistics work, just because something has a 0 percent chance of happening doesn't mean it cant happen, nor does it say that if it happens that you should be surprised that it did. Just because a system is extremely complex that we cannot fully understand does not warrant a supreme being. Converse arguments are never enough proof or reason to believe something.

Nowhere did I say it could never happen nor that one should be surprised if it did ... granted, I think everyone is surprised when their friend gets struck by lightning (it's a side effect). I said that the odds are far too skewed in one direction for me to just be okay with 'it was just evolution.' And seeing how this is a subject that can't be proven or disproved, I would say it's a very justifiable argument. You can produce facts to show that air exists. You can't produce fact to say the eye evolved out of one cell.


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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Thu 04-23-2009 10:26PM 
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The odds are not skewed. There was an equal chance of anything else happening. It happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Thu 04-23-2009 10:33PM 
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Think of evolution as the billions of possible variations and mutations of DNA that have modified species. Some of these mutations have given those species a leg up on the rest and created dominate and defining characteristics (Darwin's theory) and others that have disabled a species and lead to their ultimate demise. Its hard to comprehend, but this world has come about to what is it today over 1000's of millions of years, that is a lot of time for a lot of things to happen. I'm not saying I understand it, but I believe the level of perfection and the balance that 'intelligent design' advocates always talk about is nothing more than darwinian progression leading to a nature that has kept things in balance.

I understand this is purely my opinion and I apologize for anyone who it offends, as I'm sure it will, but personally I see religion and God as an indoctrinated idea for and from people who can not comprehend the world and complexities around them. Why did this tragedy happen to me? It's God's will. What direction should I take? God has a plan.

In my opinion only, I think it began as a way for the weak and ignorant to explain all of those things that they don't understand and since then has grown into this megalithic thing that is indoctrinated into people when they are young and impressionable. I didn't have any exposure to religion until my teens and being the person I am, I can't just accept what someone tells me just on faith, young people are different. They will believe what they are told and then modify their perception to make sure that their world matches their beliefs.


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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Fri 04-24-2009 10:43AM 
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LostBoyz wrote:
The odds are not skewed. There was an equal chance of anything else happening. It happened.

FYI, when I said odds, I meant the odds of everything happening like it needed to. It wasn't just "okay, the eye happened." No, it was a series of things that needed to go right that did. Read up on the eye.

So yes, the odds were skewed.


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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Fri 04-24-2009 11:20AM 
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berto wrote:
LostBoyz wrote:
The odds are not skewed. There was an equal chance of anything else happening. It happened.

FYI, when I said odds, I meant the odds of everything happening like it needed to. It wasn't just "okay, the eye happened." No, it was a series of things that needed to go right that did. Read up on the eye.

So yes, the odds were skewed.


Umm, read up on selection and genetics....the odds of A LOT of things are skewed. But the occurences of most biological things are astronomically high, so low odds are not, some things are going to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Fri 04-24-2009 1:28PM 
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ben laden wrote:
berto wrote:
LostBoyz wrote:
The odds are not skewed. There was an equal chance of anything else happening. It happened.

FYI, when I said odds, I meant the odds of everything happening like it needed to. It wasn't just "okay, the eye happened." No, it was a series of things that needed to go right that did. Read up on the eye.

So yes, the odds were skewed.


Umm, read up on selection and genetics....the odds of A LOT of things are skewed. But the occurences of most biological things are astronomically high, so low odds are not, some things are going to happen.

I know about selection and genetics, and it is not the same. Selection and genetics aren't a matter of IF it's going to happen, it's a matter of WHAT is going to happen for the most part. When we discuss evolution, we're thinking in the wide-range aspect over billions of years, not the passing on of characteristics from parent to child. When you're developing, it isn't a matter of whether you are going to develop an eye or not, but what color your iris will be.

The fact that somewhere along the line of evolution, an eye was developed (and all things necessary for it to happen) is what I find hard to believe. I'm not saying you have to believe it either and I'm not saying it couldn't happen. All you kids seem to be thinking that I'm implying it didn't happen randomly. You aren't going to change my opinion because you can't prove what I'm arguing is actually wrong. It's that I find it hard to believe that odds like that happened, happened.

EDIT: I removed the picture that went with your rank because I didn't wanna see it anymore :P.


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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Fri 04-24-2009 2:33PM 
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Thanks, me neither.

Edit: And I don't know, I feel the evolutionary explanations for how an eye could have come to exist (not that I'm a biology expert by any means) are more than satisfactory, especially when compared to the alternative of "it has to have been designed." I mean, there are early eyes that are far more primitive than what we have, and given the hundreds of millions of years it has had to evolve, I don't find it to be an outrageous coincidence by any means.

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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Sun 04-26-2009 12:56AM 
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I really don't see any problems with the explanation for the evolution of the eye either. If you don't think that there is any use of half an eye - you might be saddened to learn that there ARE creatures with eyes at various stages of development. (Read about it on this nice wiki: evolution of the eye) Plus we don't even have the best eyes out there - eagles have far more advanced sight than us, and a reflective layer behind the retina allows many animals to see at night.

There are plenty examples of what creationists call "Irreducible Complexity", but frankly they ignore any informed argument on the subject. If they actually took the time to understand what evolution actually means, they probably wouldn't be so mad at science. Does humankind evolving from a considerably simpler organism mean that God doesn't exist? No. But our complexity doesn't confirm God's existence either. At the end of the day its all science, and you can't rely on science to prove (or disprove) God.

The real reason that there's any argument over this is because Creationists have been doing a very good job applying false logic to "disprove" science because they hate that not everything works out the same way the bible says it does. It scares them that maybe if the bible is wrong on a couple small things that are really just metaphors, that maybe its wrong on some really big things. They can't seem to get that not everything is meant to be taken literally. If you assume that the overall message of the bible is correct, you should probably also learn to accept that the people who wrote it were simply men - they may have messed up on some details, and decided to interweave some of their own personal thoughts and opinions about the world into their writing.

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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Sun 04-26-2009 2:43AM 
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The entire idea of faith and religion is load of crap.

What is more important, taking the moralities taught in the bible or any other "holy" book or actually believing the specifics of them as fact? Even how the bible is written Jesus was a character that was here to preach ways to lead a moral life. There are some very good parables that show this. I don't see any problems in following the word, I don't however feel the need to worship the person who brought the words. Why would you idol someone who preached that you should not idol anything. It is redundant at its core. Why can't god just be our inner respect for ourselves, why does it have to be some supernatural being that has control over our lives? It isn't hard to figure out right and wrong. If you do bad things against others bad things will happen to you. It is a large generality as there are good people that have to deal with many sorrows and bad people that never receive any punishment. Life isn't fair and if you cant get over that then you have some other issues.

I see the whole thing as a way to control people. We should lead selfless lives and help others. Why should we live selfless lives for the sake of others? If everyone was selfish with a strong base of morality we would all be in a better place. That isn't to say you shouldn't help those around you. It should be for those that truly deserve it. There should always be something in it for you. It only sounds bad because of what is always taught to us. Take a step back and ask why. There is no reason not to be selfish. If you work hard for something you should have the right to reap the rewards. People who take nothing but handouts do not deserve anything.

All that being said, I know many religious people who are extremely nice and who are selfless who ask nothing in return. That is their right to do so, they have the desire to make their surrounding world a better place and if being helpful to everyone around them achieves that then in turn they are looking out for their interests and therefore selfish. The truly evil people in this world are those who appear selfless only for their own gains that are not earned.



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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Sun 04-26-2009 2:10PM 
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This is what I want to know: The bible also says that eating shellfish is an abomination. So why isn't this moron protesting outside a Red Lobster?

These nuts pick and choose which sins are OK and which sins aren't, but I'm pretty sure that the bible also says that all sins are treated equally and that both someone who eats fish and a gay person are going to burn in hell.

I think George Carlin said it best though: Religion is bullshit


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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Sun 04-26-2009 11:17PM 
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I have so much to say to all of the posts since mine that I don't even feel like replying it overwhelms me. The way some of you think makes me sad. I was raised Catholic and by no means follow it any more because of the ridiculousness of it all, but wow.

The double standards, the generalizations, the lol statements. It's all just... wow. :\.


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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Sun 04-26-2009 11:36PM 
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I will wait to see your response, I know you cant argue with stupid but I dont think my statements are stupid, maybe a little disjointed from being a little buzzed.

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 Post subject: Re: Crazy Preacher Guy!
PostPosted: Sun 05-03-2009 12:24AM 
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berto wrote:
I have so much to say to all of the posts since mine that I don't even feel like replying it overwhelms me. The way some of you think makes me sad. I was raised Catholic and by no means follow it any more because of the ridiculousness of it all, but wow.

The double standards, the generalizations, the lol statements. It's all just... wow. :\.

I get what you mean.

-----------------------

In the end, no matter what side you pick, you will always be able to justify it so that it could overwhelm the opposition to the point that they can't fight any longer. This applies to both religion and anti-religion, and neither side will be able to understand completely where the other is coming from even if they once were on the other side since we are not perfect enough to have unbiased and horribly skewed memories for more than a few seconds and I don't believe that we ever will be to that point.

It has not and never will be about the argument. It has and will always continue to be about the choice, or rather the question that you want to ask yourself. At any given time, you are able to choose how you live the rest of your life. But what's the question?
Is it do I want to believe that there is a God and that love and happiness are the only things that really matter, or not (one extreme)?
Or is it do I want to believe in a mass form of dissoluted self-hypnosis that the world is really perfect and skip along in ignorant bliss (other extreme)?

So pick your question since in doing so, you've already chosen your answer.

Btw, religious or not religious, I don't care. Neither offend me on their own since you're entitled to your beliefs, but when strong ignorance, combined with the arrogance to say that you are right along with the disillusionment that you're not entirely self-absorbed (preacher guy and a few members here come to mind)? I hope that there is a hell so that those people can burn.

I honestly just wish that everyone that actually argues one way or the other about religion would just shut the fuck up and go volunteer for a service project or something and don't even think about if the person that you'd be helping deserves it. If someone is curious about if there is such a thing as a God, then try to objectively help them figure it out for themselves because for all you know someone might have skewed your perspective when you were little and never even knew it (that applies to both sides-you can spoon feed anti-religion just as easily and religion). If you still have the urge to get out what's bugging you, then find someone that will help and DISCUSS both sides rationally, and yes, feelings that have been legitimately reflected upon can be part of that discussion as well.

Live your life to help others and you won't go wrong-though you may not be rich in the end (make another choice).

peace

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