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 Post subject: Re: Fine. NEWER Atheism thread
PostPosted: Wed 05-05-2010 7:39PM 
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timmy052006 wrote:
Cylord wrote:
Maybe he meant that agnosticism isn't a belief in any specific set of beliefs/doctrines/what-have-you's.


Pretty much, from my understanding agnosticism is just the denial of other beliefs whereas atheism is an actual belief in no God.


It's more of a lack of belief, rather than a denial of belief. I would think that an agnostic would rather say "I'm not sure that God/Allah/FSM exists" as compared to "God/Allah/FSM does not exist"

I would classify agnostics as the people who just can't decide whether they have faith or not.

thefreedictionary.com wrote wrote:
a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

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 Post subject: Re: Fine. NEWER Atheism thread
PostPosted: Wed 05-05-2010 7:46PM 
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Personally I think all of the labels are idiotic. You look at any of the proponents of any one following and you have a person or people that just sit down and observe the world around them. Some write books with neat stories and characters to get their point across but they are all the same. Each holy book might as well be titled "observing the world around you....for idiots"

If you feel the need to belong to a certain group with a set of beliefs on something written a long ass time ago, be my guest. I personally cannot understand how it has become more important to believe the words as fact rather than follow what they try to convey. Like if you don't believe that this jesus character actually walked on water, but you follow everything that he taught on how to lead your life...You are probably going to hell, according to christians.

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 Post subject: Re: Fine. NEWER Atheism thread
PostPosted: Wed 05-05-2010 8:18PM 
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What I never liked about religion was the whole concept of "if you don't believe what I believe, your're wrong and you'll burn in eternal damnation". It's this sort of mindset that garners a disliking for Christianity, Catholicism, etc.

I've always been of the idea, "believe what you will, practice how you practice, but don't critizice my faith because I have it." If you have your doubts, doubt away. I merely ask that you leave my personal faith alone. No, this isn't a way of me saying, "hey, you're talkin about my religion, so shut the fuck up". I welcome discussion. No, I don't know everything about God. Yes, I know some of the things... ok, alot of the things... in the bible sound ridiculous, but that's what faith is for. Go ahead and call it blind faith, but if that's how it seems to you, so be it. It's not blind to me. Atheists have faith, albeit faith in nothing, but it's still faith.

The argument is simple. There's christian/catholic/supreme-being-believers, agnostics, and atheists all standing on one side of a brick wall. Supreme being believers will say that there's a God on the other side of the wall. Atheists will say there's nothing on the other side of the wall. Agnostics will say "what the fuck are you guys arguing about? it's a fucking brick wall. there's no way for us to know without walking around the wall and seeing for ourselves."

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 Post subject: Re: Fine. NEWER Atheism thread
PostPosted: Thu 05-06-2010 10:06AM 
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el_lorenzo wrote:
What I never liked about religion was the whole concept of "if you don't believe what I believe, your're wrong and you'll burn in eternal damnation". It's this sort of mindset that garners a disliking for Christianity, Catholicism, etc."


Most Christians aren't that zealous and the Catholic church definitely does not preach that idea. Sure there may be over zealous preachers of all walks of life but we all know that they do more harm than good.


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 Post subject: Re: Fine. NEWER Atheism thread
PostPosted: Thu 05-06-2010 10:47AM 
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i disagree. i think christians do ALOT of good, like feeding the poor, visiting the sick, housing homeless people, etc.

how many athiests get together and randomly help people? And if they do, I'm willing to bet it is somehow funded by the state, not their own donations.

if the you're going to hell for your sins idea is so ridiculous and you are so far above believing it, then it shouldn't bother you at all when some preacher says that.

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 Post subject: Re: Fine. NEWER Atheism thread
PostPosted: Thu 05-06-2010 3:09PM 
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el_lorenzo, while I agree with most of what you just said, but the whole faith concept is flawed especially in Christianity. There were some stories of apostles and what not having to rely on faith, but they had seen miracles first hand (supposedly). They actually were proven (supposedly) that god existed or jesus was god or something along those lines. If some dude walked up to my boat along the water, then later said he was going to brb after death, I might actually believe him. Why are we asked to believe in things that were proven to the founders of this so-called religion? Or why does it matter in the first place what anyone thinks the facts are.

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 Post subject: Re: Fine. NEWER Atheism thread
PostPosted: Thu 05-06-2010 5:45PM 
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Goran wrote:
el_lorenzo wrote:
What I never liked about religion was the whole concept of "if you don't believe what I believe, your're wrong and you'll burn in eternal damnation". It's this sort of mindset that garners a disliking for Christianity, Catholicism, etc."


Most Christians aren't that zealous and the Catholic church definitely does not preach that idea. Sure there may be over zealous preachers of all walks of life but we all know that they do more harm than good.


I would disagree with you and claim that they do preach that idea--look at the papacy, the Catholic hierarchy all the way down, and the entire idea of excommunication, which basically says, If you make waves in the congregation, you're going to hell.


el_lorenzo wrote:
What I never liked about religion was the whole concept of "if you don't believe what I believe, your're wrong and you'll burn in eternal damnation".


This. That was such a turnoff for me. It goes completely against my libertarian ideology. I can't tell somebody else to follow a religion when I'm not entirely sure myself. What if I am the one in the wrong? I'm then contributing to the delinquency of somebody else.

I think the Quakers have it the closest to right.

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 Post subject: Re: Fine. NEWER Atheism thread
PostPosted: Thu 05-06-2010 6:56PM 
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I'm no religious scholar so I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure almost every mainstream religion, with the exception of Judaism, has something in their scriptures that basically says if you don't agree with them, you're going to hell. Whether people agree with it, or go around preaching it, is another thing, but it's there.

Debating which religion (or lack thereof) is better or right is a waste of time IMO. I'm not going to change your beliefs, and you're not going to change my beliefs. You can have a good discussion on certain aspects of religion, but once the conversation devolves into "Here's what I believe and why I'm right and you're wrong" then it's at a dead end.


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 Post subject: Re: Fine. NEWER Atheism thread
PostPosted: Thu 05-06-2010 6:58PM 
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logic is always the answer, anything that can't be explained logically usually isn't real

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 Post subject: Re: Fine. NEWER Atheism thread
PostPosted: Fri 05-07-2010 8:15AM 
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devil wrote:
I'm no religious scholar so I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure almost every mainstream religion, with the exception of Judaism, has something in their scriptures that basically says if you don't agree with them, you're going to hell. Whether people agree with it, or go around preaching it, is another thing, but it's there.


You're kinda wrong here, but close.

Buddhism, a religion (and lifestyle philosophy) still widely practiced in eastern Asia, does not have any kind of eternal damnation for a lack of belief. Its system is that there is a natural order of things, usually based on something like karma, and depending on how well you lived your life, you'll be reincarnated as a superior or inferior being in relation to your most recent incarnation. Whether or not you believe it to be true, that is what they think happens to everyone.

Judaism is still heavily dependent on the laws of the old testament. They believe that Jesus was a raging lunatic that needed to be put down for all the damage he was causing (he called himself God, who does that and isn't crazy, right?). They still believe a messiah is coming to save them, but it just hasn't happened yet. In the meantime, in order to avoid eternal damnation, the laws of the old testament must be followed to the letter. If there is a transgression, a sacrifice must be made (usually a member of livestock, human sacrifices are not tolerated, that is a different religion that has since mostly died) to atone for those sins. Their God is a single deity. Whether or not you believe in their religion, they believe that if anyone has sinned and has not sacrificed to atone for them, they are facing eternal damnation upon death. This is a religion of acts rather than belief.

Islam is like an exotic mix of Judaism and Christianity. The laws of the old testament must still be followed, along with some new clarifications listed in the angelically delivered text known as the Quran. To them, Jesus was a wonderful prophet, but not anything more than human, and his death was meaningless and possibly unnecessary. All you need for salvation is to follow these new rules, as they supercede anything in the widely available bible. In the eyes of muslims, whether or not you believe their religion, if you do not follow the ways of the Quran, you are condemning yourself to eternal damnation. This is a religion where belief is essential for salvation.

Christianity is a continuation of Judaism, splitting where Jesus existed on earth. They believe that Jesus was God and Man completely. His death at the hands of man fulfilled the law of the old testament, meaning that no further sacrifices needed to be made to atone for sins. However, in order to receive that gift of forgiveness, you have to believe and acknowledge publicly that 1) God exists, 2) Jesus was God, 3) Jesus' death paid for your sins according to the laws of the old testament, and 4) Jesus' resurrection completed his defeat of death and its curse on mankind. The God of this religion also describes Himself as love. Every guideline for living a christian life is founded in two rules: Love God, and love one another. Unlike other religions (including the twisted forms of Christianity that add to what is necessary for salvation), there is no cost, no additional payment, no hidden commitments tied to receiving salvation. You could live a horrible, sin-filled life, but as long as you believe completely that those 4 points are true, then you are still good (but expect a level of guilt and conviction like you've never experienced, and it won't be from other people). Still, belief is a necessity for salvation in this religion.

Atheism is belief that there is no God. (Yes, it is still a belief) But more than that, typically atheists see religion as a blight on social development. It is viewed as a form of mind control and fear-mongering. In cases where religion has been manipulated to suit the whims of its leaders, they are absolutely right. Examples include the Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, Westboro Baptist Church (GodHatesFags.com), the attacks against scientific thinkers of the recent past such as Galileo, Newton, etc. All of these attacks came from people that felt threatened by what the individuals represented, and under the guise of religion, convinced others to persecute and attack them. Atheism is less a religion than it is a name for what is left. It literally means "the non-belief of a God or gods." There is no salvation or condemnation in this belief, because after death there is nothing.

Wicca, a surprisingly prevalent belief system in western culture, is a varied religion. It has several forms, the main of which is duotheistic, with a goddess and a god, that can manifest themselves as several other gods. Other forms are pantheistic or even atheistic. The afterlife is not really focused on in Wicca, but some covens believe that after death there is an afterlife that all souls go to, while others believe in reincarnation. Followers of Wicca often practice witchcraft, and refer to themselves as witches, priests, or priestesses. Since there is no solid, consistent belief in an afterlife, and many followers aren't sure what to make of the god and goddess, most of the focus in this religion is on the here and now with creative, artistic, spiritualistic, or sexual works or acts. Belief may or may not be required.


I took a religious studies class on campus a few years ago, this is what stuck, with a little help from wikipedia.
I could shoot holes in lots of definitive arguments from most of these religions, but then it turns into a theological debate, and before you know it, nazis show up.

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