if you don't like taxation, then you hate America.

go back to Canada you free-loadin hippie

Well... I really like being apolitical and staying out of these kinds of discussions, but, I guess I'll make an exception for this one...

First I'll get it out of the way: I have not alot of right to dissect the bill that was vetoed by Pres. Bush because I hav'nt read it. But, from the discussion on here, I gather that it would have allowed companies/researchers/etc. to use/buy/work with embryonic stem cells with the blessing of the federal government, and with their money.
I have a few points I'd like to make here:

1) Those 'embryos' are human life. They are fully functional babies in their early stage of development. They are just a group of cells, but they are also more. Left in the correct enviroment they would develop into healthy normal human children. This is important. Realize that when we kill an 'embryo' we are killing a baby/child/man/woman. There is nothing political about that. Just the facts.

2) The war in Iraq (or more generally any war) is not a good comparison to killing innocent human babies. War (again, in general) is a necessity to defend our country. If we do not go to war sometimes, then the war will inevitably come to us. It's just the way things work. Appeasement (spelling?) is never a good option. In WWII we tried to keep ourselves out of the war and ended up being dragged in. The same thing happened a few years earlier to most notably England and France, who had the power to stop Hitler early and, for the sake of trying to avoid war, didn't and gave and gave until Hitler brought the war to them in a big way. Unfortunately there is no good way to stop evil people in power from taking more and more without violence. As far as the current Iraq situation, it is debatable weather we should have gone to war or not. But that isn't the issue as far as embryonic stem cells go.

3) Now, I'm not a doctor, but I've heard of various studies that confirm that we can get and use stem cells from various different tissues in adults' bodies. The definition of a stem cell is one that can subdivide into any different tissue under the right conditions. And a stem cell is a stem cell right? Then why do we need to be killing 'embryos' in the first place? Isn't it needless?

Anyway, corrections of the facts/opinions are welcome. I hope everyone is getting out and enjoying the great weather this weekend!

Reasonable people disagree that embryos are human lives. That's the only fact here.

If it is your contention that killing embryos is killing humans, then, for consistency's sake, do you believe that IVF clinics are merely death camps in disguise?

Adopt a kid, for God's sake. However, that's not the question, here.

Couldn't you make the same arguement about sperm?

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Its not coming out of our pay checks, social security is coming out of our paychecks, the war is on loand.

Most everything is on loan at this point. In the trillions and counting!

Neither have 95% of the people that voted on the bill. Most of them read a 1 paragraph summary and maybe some highlighted points, but that is it. If you ever listen to a congressmen speak on the floor about a bill on CSPAN you will understand how little they actually know and how screwed the rest of us all are.


Research is currently allowed to happen so gov't blessing is not needed, only federal money being used for research is the issue in question.


Those few cells are no more a fully functional baby than a hole in the ground is a fully functional 150-story sky scrapper. If your OPINION is different, that is fine, just don't try and say it as fact.


Your right and your wrong. It's not political, its religious and it is NOT a fact.


But you said eariler that embryos are children/men/women and war kills children/men/women.


I don't see how this war is doing anything but making middle eastern nations hate us and allowing bush to get even with sadam.


So are you saying we should go around and start killing anyone who we see as 'evil'? Because that does have something to do with embryo's of evil people.


Obviously your not a doctor. Adults' do have stem cells but they are limited to a certain area of your body i.e. you have nerve stem cells or intestine stem cells. Embryonic stem cells can become ANYTHING not just one grouping. Plus, your stem cells have been damaged with age, unlike embryonic stem cells. There is work being done to use stem cells from umbilical cords but those cells aren't as resilient as embryonic.

You are not exactly correct either. This opinion is not "religious." To some religions, they, as a whole, consider it a fact, and are very vocal about it. That is why many tie this to religion. However, people not of a specific religious sect still can have this opinion.

Stereotyping something that doesn't seem rational to some as automatically religious is not good practice. This same concept can be applied to abortion, capital punishment, etc.

Not everyone with an "irrational" opinion is a religious nut.

I, personally, am not sure where to draw the line for where a human life starts. Biblically, God knows us before we are even "knit together in the womb." Does this mean that we are the selected si9ngle egg and sperm that are eventually going to combine to eventually form a baby? Does this mean that if someone sprays their load into a toilet, he has prevented someone from ever entering the realm of Earth? Does this mean a life is lost every time a woman completes her menstrual periods? Where the line is to be drawn exactly is not clear cut. It is unfortunate, but this debate has no end in sight.

No matter where you draw the line, the embryos (which turns out to be some 400,000 after some google-ry to find it) are going to be "discarded." So instead of being used to save lives they'll go in the dumpster.

Thought I'd reiterate my point after the posts following it.