Home Forums Gamescan Chat42 About
* Login   * Register * FAQ    * Search
It is currently Thu 03-28-2024 8:03AM

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: And yet another "no-gun zone" works like a charm.
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 8:19AM 
Offline
Brigadier General
User avatar

Joined: Fri 01-24-2003 7:13PM
Posts: 1652
Location: down the hill

Source: MST Wireless
http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/12163196.html

http://www.ketv.com/news/14782867/detail.html

Of note is that the mall is a legally-posted no-guns zone under Nebraska law. The mall could have chosen to not ban guns on the premises. There were other malls which could have been his target, but he chose the one with a no-guns sign. Nobody was able to fight back.

I'm also curious to know the ethnicity/religion of the shooter, as the FBI has reported that there would be mass shootings in malls from Al-Qaeda et al.

_________________
heretic^ stars as Samuel Jackson in the summer's newest thriller: Owls on a Forum!

http://web.umr.edu/~ikellogg/heretic%5E-owls.gif


Top
 Profile  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 8:32AM 
Offline
Colonel

Joined: Wed 08-20-2003 9:47AM
Posts: 570

Source: CompSci Building
In regards to his ethnicity, he seems to be "white" from the picture on the article you posted... Unless he's the next American Taliban, I think we can rule that out.

Additionally, I haven't seen anything that suggested he chose the location because it was a "no-gun zone", so I'm not sure it's fair to make that assumption. He could have just as easily opened fire in a crowded public place (where guns are allowed) and shot as many people before anyone realized what was going on. I'm all for gun rights, but I don't think it's really necessary (or appropriate for that matter) to make a spectacle of every event like this, and that goes for both sides of the issue.

P.S. are you even aware of any malls in that area that aren't "no-gun zone"s, or were you just hypothesizing in order to try to further your point?


Top
 Profile  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 10:52AM 
Offline
Brigadier General
User avatar

Joined: Fri 01-24-2003 7:13PM
Posts: 1652
Location: down the hill

Source: MST Wireless
I have heard reports from people in the area that this mall is posted "no guns" and others in the area are not.

When was the last mass shooting in public that was NOT in a no-guns zone, that was not ended or at least cut short by a bystander with a gun?

I should also say that the articles have been updated since I first posted them. I'm not surprised that he's not muslim, but it was just a guess. It turns out he was on drugs, both prescription ritalin and recreational.

_________________
heretic^ stars as Samuel Jackson in the summer's newest thriller: Owls on a Forum!

http://web.umr.edu/~ikellogg/heretic%5E-owls.gif


Top
 Profile  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 11:04AM 
Offline
Colonel

Joined: Wed 08-20-2003 9:47AM
Posts: 570

Source: CompSci Building
Certainly you don't expect me to sit there and cross-reference every major shooting event with state legislature, local ordinances, and property policies. I'm not even saying I disagree with you on your points. As I said, I support gun rights, I just think it's stupid how every time there's an incident like this, people feel the need to stand on a soapbox with their interpretation of the event, which may or may not have any resemblance to the actual facts of the case.

Do you know that he picked the location because it was a gun-free zone? Do you know his motives at all? Let the police do their job, let the families of the victims mourn... you can stand on your soap box some other time.


Top
 Profile  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 11:50AM 
Offline
Lieutenant General
User avatar

Joined: Mon 11-17-2003 12:27AM
Posts: 3128
Location: The Bat Cave

Source: VPN
Altaica wrote:
Let the police do their job,


EXACTLY. Fill out the paperwork AFTER a crime has been committed....

_________________
Carney Institute of Technology

Why not outlaw MURDER instead of trying to outlaw guns?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 11:57AM 
Offline
pwned by heretic
pwned by heretic

Joined: Sun 09-19-2004 4:41PM
Posts: 755
Location: The Buffalo Barn

Source: CivilE Building
riiiiight. he got off 20 some shots then killed himself. the whole event took what, like 30 seconds. what are the chances that even in montana somebody will be able to stop you from causing harm in that amount of time.

I am all for guns rights, but this isnt a guy taking a mall hostage, where a man with a gun did something nice. this is a man opening shots then quickly killing himself. he choose the mall not for the no-gun signs, but for the people and publicity.

_________________
TST


Top
 Profile  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 12:43PM 
Offline
Colonel

Joined: Wed 08-20-2003 9:47AM
Posts: 570

Source: CompSci Building
jthxv wrote:
Altaica wrote:
Let the police do their job,


EXACTLY. Fill out the paperwork AFTER a crime has been committed....


Are you suggesting that the police could have somehow stopped this from happening...?


Top
 Profile  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 12:57PM 
Offline
Brigadier General
User avatar

Joined: Mon 07-26-2004 3:11PM
Posts: 1420

Source: VPN
Altaica wrote:
jthxv wrote:
Altaica wrote:
Let the police do their job,


EXACTLY. Fill out the paperwork AFTER a crime has been committed....


Are you suggesting that the police could have somehow stopped this from happening...?


He's suggesting that the only thing the police are good for is taking reports after a crime has happened, not for stopping crime. Even the police themselves concede the fact that they can not be everywhere all the time. Also, the gunman killed 8 people. If he had enough time to kill 8 people, one of those 8 people would have had enough time to kill only one.

_________________
Don't do drugs because if you do drugs you'll go to prison, and drugs are really expensive in prison.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 1:10PM 
Offline
Colonel

Joined: Wed 08-20-2003 9:47AM
Posts: 570

Source: CompSci Building
Agentzak wrote:
He's suggesting that the only thing the police are good for is taking reports after a crime has happened, not for stopping crime. Even the police themselves concede the fact that they can not be everywhere all the time.


I wouldn't say that's necessarily true that they can't stop crime, but it certainly is true that they can't stop it in all cases. Guess that's the downside of living in a "free" society, eh? I think I'm content with trying my chances against random acts of violence vs living in a police-state, though.

Quote:
Also, the gunman killed 8 people. If he had enough time to kill 8 people, one of those 8 people would have had enough time to kill only one.


I'm not interested in debating that as none of us were there and don't know the circumstances, plus I've already said twice previously that I'm all for gun rights. Of course, I don't necessarily think that gun rights outweigh the rights of private property... but that's another issue all together.

Anyway, my point was that events such as this shouldn't be turned into a spectacle as the media and people tend to do. Let the facts of the case be found first, and give the families time to mourn. Once that's out of the way, feel free to start preaching.


Top
 Profile  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 2:22PM 
Offline
Brigadier General
User avatar

Joined: Fri 07-08-2005 7:47PM
Posts: 1106
Location: Quad

Source: RC I
Agentzak wrote:
Altaica wrote:
jthxv wrote:
Altaica wrote:
Let the police do their job,


EXACTLY. Fill out the paperwork AFTER a crime has been committed....


Are you suggesting that the police could have somehow stopped this from happening...?


He's suggesting that the only thing the police are good for is taking reports after a crime has happened, not for stopping crime. Even the police themselves concede the fact that they can not be everywhere all the time.


Can you really expect them to stop a random act of violence?


Top
 Profile  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 3:18PM 
Offline
Brigadier General
User avatar

Joined: Mon 07-26-2004 3:11PM
Posts: 1420

Source: VPN
Altaica wrote:
Anyway, my point was that events such as this shouldn't be turned into a spectacle as the media and people tend to do. Let the facts of the case be found first, and give the families time to mourn. Once that's out of the way, feel free to start preaching.


The media has a habit of forgetting things once they find that the facts didn't turn out the way they wanted. I was just watching CNN an hour ago and they were covering the issue of mall security, even bringing in an "expert." It's almost as if they don't have enough news to cover until something like this happens, then they all go crazy and beat it like a dead horse.

_________________
Don't do drugs because if you do drugs you'll go to prison, and drugs are really expensive in prison.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 6:43PM 
Offline
Major
User avatar

Joined: Wed 09-08-2004 12:48PM
Posts: 234

Source: Wilson Library
What's harder to believe is this:

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/12163196.html wrote:
She told the AP she called Hawkins' mother, went to the Maruca-Kovacs' house and retrieved the suicide note, in which Hawkins wrote that he was "sorry for everything," would not be a burden on his family anymore and "I'm going out in style." The note also said, "now I'll be famous."


Just b/c your life sucks, doesn't mean you have to ruin other's lives. What a way to be 'famous'....as a little prick whose mommy didn't love him enough.


Top
 Profile  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 12-06-2007 11:38PM 
Offline
Lieutenant General
User avatar

Joined: Mon 11-17-2003 12:27AM
Posts: 3128
Location: The Bat Cave

Source: VPN
berto wrote:
Agentzak wrote:
Altaica wrote:
jthxv wrote:
Altaica wrote:
Let the police do their job,


EXACTLY. Fill out the paperwork AFTER a crime has been committed....


Are you suggesting that the police could have somehow stopped this from happening...?


He's suggesting that the only thing the police are good for is taking reports after a crime has happened, not for stopping crime. Even the police themselves concede the fact that they can not be everywhere all the time.


Can you really expect them to stop a random act of violence?


You are exactly right, and that is the reason you should prepare yourself for cases like this when it is self-defense or NO defense....
I am not suggesting that police don't WANT to stop crime, but that they can't. If I don't commit a crime, I don't go to jail, so I WILL commit a crime later. We don't have the set up from Minority Report so they cannot predict WHERE crime will be, or who the culprit is. But if I am armed, I MIGHT be able to defend myself....


dannyboyfx wrote:
riiiiight. he got off 20 some shots then killed himself. the whole event took what, like 30 seconds. what are the chances that even in montana somebody will be able to stop you from causing harm in that amount of time.


Well, according to that, you believe there IS a chance. That is good enough for me. I won't say that there would have been for sure a good samaratin there to end this guy and save some victims lives, but at the same time, I think it is a possibility. According to the Omaha Police Chief, he was "obviously hiding something in a black sweatshirt." If you don't think those people concerned enough for their and their family's well being to carry a gun, pay attention to these types of things, you are dead wrong. They might have been able to end this thing completely... and maybe not.

EDIT:: And if you look, many instructors for self defense say that the best tool in self defense is being aware of your surroundings...

_________________
Carney Institute of Technology

Why not outlaw MURDER instead of trying to outlaw guns?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri 12-07-2007 12:26AM 
Offline
Major
User avatar

Joined: Fri 09-03-2004 8:00PM
Posts: 438

Source: VPN
I'm gonna go ahead and post the whole CNN article, so that some of the speculation can be cleared up. But I will say beforehand that the police are not sure about where he got the weapon from.
From CNN.com :
OMAHA, Nebraska (CNN) -- Investigators probing the deadly mall shooting in Omaha have seized computers and are analyzing information on Web sites in the search for clues in the case, police said Thursday.

Todd Landry, director of the Nebraska Division of Family and Children's Services, described for reporters the laundry list of residential treatment centers and group and foster homes where Robert Hawkins spent much of his teen years, because of his behavioral and psychiatric problems.

At one point during that period Hawkins also filed a report with police alleging he was molested by a roommate at one of the facilities. The case was resolved internally, according to the report.

Asked about the allegation, Landry responded, "I can't confirm or deny that that may have happened."

Hawkins was sent to Piney Ridge Center in Waynesville, Missouri, on May 18, 2002 -- a day after his 14th birthday. The center specializes in mental health and substance abuse services, according to its Web site.

Landry, reading from a juvenile court petition filed by Sarpy County, Nebraska, said Hawkins was placed at the center because of "homicidal threats to his stepmother."

"He also had two psychiatric hospitalizations, and has been diagnosed with attention deficit disorder, mood disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, and parent-child relationship problems," Landry said.

He offered no details about the problems with the stepmother.

When the teen went to live with friends of the family one and a half years ago, "issues with the stepmother" were the reason, said Debora Maruca-Kovac, into whose house he moved.
Landry divulged only information from public records, as allowed by law.

Hawkins was a ward of the state from September 17, 2002, through August 24, 2006. Parental rights were never severed, authorities said.

Among the problems cited in the records were his involvement in a fight and substance abuse problems.

Nebraska court records show a Hawkins with a matching age had a juvenile criminal history including charges of alcohol and drug use, disorderly conduct and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. He is listed in the records as living with a foster parent.

According to Landry, Hawkins' treatments were extensive, and cost the state $265,000 while he was in its custody.

"This tragedy was not a failure of the system to provide appropriate quality services for a youth that needed it," he said.

Maruca-Kovac described Hawkins on CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360" Wednesday night as "kind of like a pound puppy that nobody wanted."

Paraphrasing a suicide note he left in their home, she said, "He didn't want to be a burden to people and [said] that he was a piece of s--- all of his life and that now he'd be famous."
Hawkins' body was found on the third floor of the Von Maur store inside Westroads Mall. Police believe the attacks were premeditated, but the victims were targeted at random.

Omaha Police Chief Thomas Warren said Hawkins visited with a friend before going to the mall, and he sent a text message to a girl, apparently a recent ex-girlfriend. He also left voicemail for his mother, Warren said.

Maruca-Kovac told CNN Hawkins left the house Wednesday about 11 a.m., and called her about two hours later, sounding upset.

"He just said he wanted to thank me for everything I'd done for him ... and he was sorry," Maruca-Kovac said. He told her he had been fired that day from his job at McDonald's, she said.
"I said, 'Come home and we'll talk about it.' "

"He said, 'It's too late.' He said he'd left a note explaining everything."

The suicide note left at Maruca-Kovac's home was turned over to police, who wouldn't divulge its contents.

"He basically said how sorry he was for everything," Maruca-Kovac told CNN on Wednesday night. She described Hawkins as well-behaved, although "he had a lot of emotional problems, obviously."

This past summer, Hawkins tried to enlist in the U.S. Army but was turned down, a source familiar with the situation told CNN. The source didn't want his name used because revealing information about potential recruits is against military rules.

The two recruiters who spoke with Hawkins said he appeared to be a typical teenager.

"He said he'd had a rough time in his life and wanted to see about changing it," Army Sgt. Edward Dust said.

Hawkins had been on antidepressants but stopped taking them because they made him feel "weird," Maruca-Kovac said. There was no public information on how long he had been off the medication or what the medication was.

When Hawkins moved in with Maruca-Kovac's family, Maruca-Kovac said, he felt mistreated and rejected by everyone. He also suffered from depression.

"When he first came and lived with us, he was in the fetal position and chewed his fingernails all the time, and was unemployed, and hopeless. After awhile, he got a job and came out of that," Maruca-Kovac told CNN. He also got a haircut, and seemed happier, she said.

She said she was unaware Hawkins had any guns, although she said he knew a lot about them, as did his stepfather. Although police haven't completed tracing the weapon Warren said police believe Hawkins stole the firearm, which was stored at his stepfather's residence. Warren said it was an "AK-47 assault weapon."

Maruca-Kovac said her family is "devastated" by what happened.

A friend, Shawn Saunders, told CNN, "It's still hard to imagine the guy that I knew, that I used to hang out with, was capable of something like this."
He added, "I'm not sure the level of depression, I just know he was on antidepressants the last couple of months. I guess it was just getting worse over time with the loss of his job and I guess issues he had going on with the girlfriend at the time."

Sorry for the lame ass formatting, but CNN's web site sucks and I'm a lazy bastard.
Edit:
the link


Top
 Profile  
    
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon 12-10-2007 2:54PM 
Offline
Brigadier General
User avatar

Joined: Fri 01-24-2003 7:13PM
Posts: 1652
Location: down the hill

Source: MST Wireless
One of the first articles I read included a quote from a female security guard (unarmed, of course) who was standing next to the shooter and saw someone next to her get shot in the head. If she'd had a gun, she could have shot the guy and maybe stopped the body count before it got up to 8. Or maybe she would have been shot first since he would have considered her a threat. If she'd had it concealed, he wouldn't have known she had a gun until it was too late for him.

Since we do know his motives now, namely that he wanted to "be famous" by killing as many people as he could, we know that he wanted to choose a place where he could kill lots of people. And having people shooting back at you would at the very least slow down the massacre. There were other malls in the area without no-guns signs. He may have had other reasons for choosing that location, but dozens of other shootings before this, all in similar locations, show that this shooting is only continuing a very specific trend.

_________________
heretic^ stars as Samuel Jackson in the summer's newest thriller: Owls on a Forum!

http://web.umr.edu/~ikellogg/heretic%5E-owls.gif


Top
 Profile  
    
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 20 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group