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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:04PM 
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Battalion wrote:
benm wrote:
How is utilitarianism unamerican? Seems like americans don't give a damn about the means, just the ends.


It pays to stay awake during history class. Do you see any difference between the concept of freedom as set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as opposed to a government operating on utilitarianism?


Maybe we're talking about a different utilitarianism? I'm talking about the consequential ethical concept in which actions are judged by the amount of utility generated by performing them...

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:05PM 
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same one dude


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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:07PM 
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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:10PM 
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Benm : There are plenty of theories on the relevance or lack their of to utilitarian ethical theory and its role on American thought. I personally don't see its place but many thinkers do.

That being said, why argue with someone who starts with an insult and then does not actually provide any information rather asks a broad question with little to no actual implications?

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:15PM 
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lordofstars wrote:
Benm : There are plenty of theories on the relevance or lack their of to utilitarian ethical theory and its role on American thought. I personally don't see its place but many thinkers do.

That being said, why argue with someone who starts with an insult and then does not actually provide any information rather asks a broad question with little to no actual implications?


Basically no one likes him, but I feel bad just insulting him back ... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:17PM 
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Battalion wrote:
same one dude


... Then one could argue that the most utility is derived from having a system that is set forth in the declaration of independence / constitution. Don't see what you're getting at. See above comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:18PM 
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I imply they are completely incompatible. American concepts of freedom allow you to exercise your freedoms as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others. Utilitarianism does this same thing but it also doesn't allow you to not participate in your freedoms if it is not useful for multiple people, because of this I assert that Utilitarianism is quite unAmerican since America prides itself on its concepts of freedom thus a none American brand of freedom could thusly be called unAmerican.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:21PM 
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Battalion wrote:
I imply they are completely incompatible. American concepts of freedom allow you to exercise your freedoms as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others. Utilitarianism does this same thing but it also doesn't allow you to not participate in your freedoms if it is not useful for multiple people, because of this I assert that Utilitarianism is quite unAmerican since America prides itself on its concepts of freedom thus a none American brand of freedom could thusly be called unAmerican.


Jesus learn to punctuate. I have no idea what that ridiculous sentence means.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:33PM 
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Sorry for replying again so quickly in a contradictory manner but, for those of you interested in the actual meaning behind utilitarian ethical theory would do much better to look elsewhere as the information here does not appear to be correct and at the very least is misleading.

Plenty of good sources of information out there on utilitarianism and competing ethical theories if you are actually interested.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:34PM 
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Battalion wrote:
I imply they are completely incompatible. American concepts of freedom allow you to exercise your freedoms as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others. Utilitarianism does this same thing but it also doesn't allow you to not participate in your freedoms if it is not useful for multiple people, because of this I assert that Utilitarianism is quite unAmerican since America prides itself on its concepts of freedom thus a none American brand of freedom could thusly be called unAmerican.


I think you missed the part where I said that the most utility is derived from the American concept of freedom. That would make the American system best, the most utility would be derived from allowing people to exercise their freedom as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. Since freedom > *, this would be the logical decision for a utilitarian to make.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:40PM 
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"That would make the American system best, the most utility would be derived from allowing people to exercise their freedom as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others."

Im arguing that with the all too often situation of individuals being forced to be in a Union it betrays the American concepts of freedom and goes off to Utilitarianism instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:44PM 
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Battalion wrote:
"That would make the American system best, the most utility would be derived from allowing people to exercise their freedom as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others."

Im arguing that with the all too often situation of individuals being forced to be in a Union it betrays the American concepts of freedom and goes off to Utilitarianism instead.


Wouldn't you argue that being forced into a union doesn't derive the most utility?

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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Wed 04-02-2008 11:46PM 
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For a group it does but for individuals no.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Thu 04-03-2008 7:31AM 
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FlamingZelda wrote:
My point however is that even though he was a horrible teacher, there was no one else to take his place. We have a shortage of teachers right now and paying teachers to quit is just a bad idea--even if they suck face.


We have a shortage of people willing to teach at the going rate, not a shortage of people capable of teaching effectively. Not to trivialize the matter, but it's all supply and demand. Normally the wage is determined by the supply and demand of the labor market. However, when you get into a market that is not purely competitive (ie. education) this is unfortunately not the case. I'm sure we'd all love to say that teachers don't care what they make, they're just there for the students, but that's bullshit. They have families, they have needs, they have desires.

Keeping bad people around just because there's "no one" to take over is not going to help the situation. In fact, I don't see how it could do anything but just make things worse. Perhaps if we were to fire all the bad teachers, perhaps if we were to increase funding to start paying teachers what they deserve (the good ones anyway), perhaps if we were to get rid of No Child Left Behind and all these other worthless requirements... then maybe, just maybe the system would work out. Like that will ever happen though, heh...


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 Post subject: Re: Anti-Union Group Offers 'Worst' Teachers $10G to Quit
PostPosted: Thu 04-03-2008 11:19AM 
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I think the encouragement of home schooling and private schooling could likely help alleviate the problem with public schools. With a smaller number of individuals going to public schools it might help break the back of the union and let the benefits of supply and demand take place. Not to mention if the brightest children and special needs children left public schooling it would help free up funds to increase teacher pay.


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