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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sat 03-29-2008 11:33PM 
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Okay, I wasn't exactly doing thorough research for a forum discussion, just going off the top of my head. The church has had a historic problem with science because they have always been threatened by the possible discovery that will conflict with their message and the bible. earth being the center of the universe, earth being flat (not in the bible but progressive thinking against the norm), and the study of the human body (autopsies) would get you killed. There has been little change in the philosophy of this battle today just nobody dies for it. Faith cannot by definition be based on logic, reason, or scientific explanation.

What part of newtons discoveries explain god? For every faithful scientists you have plenty more that are atheist, not really a strong point.

Side stepping is a decent tool for the elite smug of this world, if you really want to prove your point or swing my view point, please prove even my semantics wrong.

There is no way in a population here of engineers will you prove or even convince that faith, logic, and reason build upon each other or should even fall within the same sentence. Nothing we do can be based solely on faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sat 03-29-2008 11:41PM 
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Battalion wrote:
lets see 932 people over...358 years equals. You know I never was really good at math. I can say this Mountain is most certainly not a mole hill no sir. If we want to play "in the name of games" we could definetly bring up Robespierre, but we're not that shallow. Nope. Nor will we bring up questions on whether it really matters if it was done in the name of some concept if a nuclear weapon built by a scientist kills almost a hundred thousand people which today would be equal to like a hundred thousand people probably.

What you wanted to do was bring up Genghis Khan but yall suck at this game.


So short version (cleaned out the smug and added logic)

Because killing in the name of secular things (power, money, and "security") far outweigh those carried out under or for the name of a "God" the latter is not only ok, but really does not matter.

When you kill for something secularly you are wanting something and "removing" those in the way.

When you kill for or in the name of a "God" you merely kill them for a difference of opinion, nothing is gained other then a morally questionable cleansing of "wrong."

Neither one of these is ok, but one at least falls under the crutch of the human condition. To kill for your god is not failing to see beyond instinct but is a learned evil, a much higher conscious decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sat 03-29-2008 11:47PM 
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Quote:
Nothing we do can be based solely on faith.


You should be applauded for such a statement. Any one of these alone makes for a foolish or robotic human. A mixture of all three is needed(though likely I should of left out logic, I'm new to discussions of what makes a person).

Quote:
The church has had a historic problem with science because they have always been threatened by the possible discovery that will conflict with their message and the bible.

You cant just say this stuff you gotta back this shit up. I once had the same problem and took this stuff at face value but you have to actually delve into the matter. Hell the dark ages are even misunderstood because of a Christian and a guy that had a hard on for Rome.

The significant thing about Newton was his God was one of math, all his works could be explained by the equations Newton found(not all of course but a good amount). Thats why he worked so hard and later turned to alchemy. Newton was being used to show faith and science matching up not to say all of something was something.

Ill get to the semantics tomorrow if you work a little harder at giving me some good evidence. After all for a good relationship to work both people need to be willing to put forth effort.


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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sat 03-29-2008 11:50PM 
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Battalion wrote:
lets see 932 people over...358 years equals. You know I never was really good at math. I can say this Mountain is most certainly not a mole hill no sir. If we want to play "in the name of games" we could definetly bring up Robespierre, but we're not that shallow. Nope. Nor will we bring up questions on whether it really matters if it was done in the name of some concept if a nuclear weapon built by a scientist kills almost a hundred thousand people which today would be equal to like a hundred thousand people probably.

What you wanted to do was bring up Genghis Khan but yall suck at this game.


I performed my scaling with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates, eventually ended up feeding this into google to get the multiplier: 1.42857143 * (10^(-5))) / (7.69230769 * (10^(-7))) = 18.5714286.

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sat 03-29-2008 11:53PM 
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My Beautiful smug you ruined it!

You seem to read too much into my counter use of "in the name of". I was merely trivializing his use of it with counter examples. Honestly your acting like I'm some kind of Christian apologetic.


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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sat 03-29-2008 11:54PM 
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Thats pretty cool Benm, I didn't know something like that existed.


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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sun 03-30-2008 12:04AM 
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I don't think the idea is that science and religion don't agree. That's a part of it, but I think the focus is different.

I think the problem is that the parents honestly thought faith would cure their daughter, and to show their faith and trust in their god they opted to not treat her with medicine. The debate is if this is logical, moral, and able to be called murder.

And Battalion, it's lovely sunshine rainbows that you like to research, but I'd like to ask that you not be so arrogant. The idea is to come to a mutual understanding, and not to crush the other person's POV into the ground by claiming that their numbers are off or their sources aren't good enough. Nobody's opinion will be changed, so the goal is to have the satisfaction of having a justification for and defense of what you believe. Also a little humility goes a long way 8)

Also your != you're.

thanks for understanding
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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sun 03-30-2008 12:06AM 
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nit pick away :)

want me to start numbering points of argument so we can keep track?

I am by no means denouncing the ideals of faith. I am saying (proved in the story posted by OP) that faith is not a system you can rely on solely, especially when there are very real "scientific" methods at your disposal. I actually posted up that I believe in prayer with sick or injured loved ones (i have first hand seen the benefits). The argument that you have created and we are refuting is that faith is intertwined with logic and reason. It is not by definition that way. You can use faith WITH logic and reason, but it is naive and stupid to use only faith, whereas you can rest solely on logic and reason. I broke my leg in a car accident. I have a very religious family and I am sure I had many prayers from people I probably didnt even know. I guarantee you the reason I can walk today is because my doctor used scientifically proven methods of repairing my leg, and my therapists used scientifically proven methods of recovery. It is ludicrous to think otherwise.

There are very few situations where having hope and faith are your only means of progress with any situation. When you use faith and logic in a situation they do not fuel each other, you do not figure out a problem because you have faith in a solution, you must come to a solution and have faith you can meet that goal.

I am not going to look up specific ordeals where the church felt threatened and acted, it is all around us. Fighting against teaching of evolution, big bang, and space. The middle east is just covered with faith inspired killing.

Newton is a good example of how faith can inspire a great deal of logic and understanding of observation. I cannot see the intertwining of the philosophies though. It appears that god was a large interest to him (as it was to most people). If I am missing the connection here please point it out

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sun 03-30-2008 12:16AM 
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LB: You have to understand that to many people god is real and exactly described in the bible, and prayers and faith work miracles, and angels watch us... To some, this is reality. The parents used a method that they see as curative, because it is real to them. The question of if it is real or not nobody can answer doubtlessly. To most of us, prayers being the sole method of healing a disease is not a reality.

Of course, this sort of relativism of reality does not exist in place of true reality, but since we cannot prove that there is/is not a god or faith healing or whatever, it's all we've got.

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sun 03-30-2008 12:20AM 
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Quite right Calc, I just get over eager at times because I love arguing. Also with the idea that no one changes their mind on the internet I generally talk more...liberally. Also Im tired, I'll have better sentence structure after sleep.

Lost
Yes I do

Also I'll get to semantics tomorrow.But,
Quote:
I am not going to look up specific ordeals where the church felt threatened and acted, it is all around us. Fighting against teaching of evolution, big bang, and space. The middle east is just covered with faith inspired killing.
Bring up examples or drop the point. How is evolution that scientific? Prove it with the scientific method. Also how does that hurt science? They are against children being taught that, they have taken little to no action against adults wanting to learn it. Also how many people are the muslims killing because they don't like their science?

Until later sleepz


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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sun 03-30-2008 12:28AM 
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Battalion wrote:
Quite right Calc, I just get over eager at times because I love arguing. Also with the idea that no one changes their mind on the internet I generally talk more...liberally. Also Im tired, I'll have better sentence structure after sleep.

Lost
Yes I do

Also I'll get to semantics tomorrow.But,
Quote:
I am not going to look up specific ordeals where the church felt threatened and acted, it is all around us. Fighting against teaching of evolution, big bang, and space. The middle east is just covered with faith inspired killing.
Bring up examples or drop the point. How is evolution that scientific? Prove it with the scientific method. Also how does that hurt science? They are against children being taught that, they have taken little to no action against adults wanting to learn it. Also how many people are the muslims killing because they don't like their science?

Until later sleepz


http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/e ... cience.htm
"Yes, evolution is science and it is scientific."

IIRC the pope / the vatican have recognized evolution as valid, and intelligent design as crap. They still don't like stem cell research though. Give them a few centuries and they'll come around to it - good luck getting an apology for denying life saving research to all of the people that are going to die between now and then though.




For comic value: http://www.truechristian.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sun 03-30-2008 9:42AM 
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well you have the catholic community up then, I was unaware of that.

Are you telling me you haven't heard the debates every few months on nat'l news in towns where they want evolution replaced with creationism (a science imitation). Watch jesus camp to see all the absurd parents that home school their children building them up with ridiculous thoughts on the world. It almost rivals the type of brain washing that goes on in the middle east.

Having faith is not bad, it is a good moral trait. My issue is when people have a problem with many methods in front of them to solve it. They sit back and have faith that god will do the right thing. If you believe in such a thing, God created us, and gave us minds to think and solve problems, if you do not use your reason to use all means necessary to solve a problem, then god will do the right thing. Let nature take its course.

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sun 03-30-2008 9:52AM 
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What gets me is that they didn't even go to a doctor to see what was wrong. Miracles may (or may not) come out of thin air, but I'm pretty sure diagnoses don't.

THAT was what was stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sun 03-30-2008 11:32AM 
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LostBoyz wrote:
well you have the catholic community up then, I was unaware of that.

Are you telling me you haven't heard the debates every few months on nat'l news in towns where they want evolution replaced with creationism (a science imitation). Watch jesus camp to see all the absurd parents that home school their children building them up with ridiculous thoughts on the world. It almost rivals the type of brain washing that goes on in the middle east.

Having faith is not bad, it is a good moral trait. My issue is when people have a problem with many methods in front of them to solve it. They sit back and have faith that god will do the right thing. If you believe in such a thing, God created us, and gave us minds to think and solve problems, if you do not use your reason to use all means necessary to solve a problem, then god will do the right thing. Let nature take its course.


I was talking to a guy in the National Guard that had been deployed to Iraq; he said that the other side usually would hold their guns out all crazy like and shoot because "Allah would guide their bullets". Yep. Crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Sun 03-30-2008 11:44AM 
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If these 'people' had not been religious, they would charged with murder and/or lethal neglect. Faith should not be a catch-all shield that protects you from prosecution when you do wrong (I am NOT mentioning Catholic priests, so let's try not to divert there).

As far as trying to insert god into here and debate philosophy and the weight of one life, I'm looking at you Battalion, shame on you. Shame on you for detracting from the loss of this girl's life and the experiences she will never have.

But since this has degenerated into a horribly twisted and grammatically nonsensical debate, I will contribute if only in the hopes that this poor girl can receive justice someday.


The preservation of life is a tenet of most major religions, that we should not through action or neglect cause one to suffer or die. The tales in those books often speak of a god that requires death to prove the faith of a person. By the implied words of those books, that is the right of god, not man. These parents were in the wrong. They did not seek to preserve their daughter's life with medical attention, they chose to ask god for help instead. God gave them free will, s/he/it probably expects them to use it instead of having to lead them around by the hand all the time.

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