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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Mon 03-31-2008 8:11PM 
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"So... you're saying that people should be legally required to seek medical attention?"
"Yes, yes they should."

FrankieM in your opinion who has more ownership over a child, the state or the parents?


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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Mon 03-31-2008 8:13PM 
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FrankieM wrote:
But for something that could be easily helped by antibiotics, why shouldn't they get everything taken care of?


Three disconnected arguments:

Let's put this in a different perspective. What if someone believed so much in the concept of evolution that they wish to refuse antibiotics because that would promote the propagation of genes which contain a weakened immune system? I'm leaning toward this view myself (and I believe in divine Creation).

And there's the fact that antibiotics increase one's risk of cancer (that's why spending several months continuously on antibiotics is strongly discouraged). What if a parent deems the increased risk of cancer greater than the risk of whatever bacterial infection? My point is that there are pros and cons to every medical treatment. Just because most people decide one way (most people get frequent antibiotics for every infection - and the incidence of cancer has increased how much since the introduction of antibiotics?) doesn't mean the other decision has no merit.

The government has no morally just power to force anyone to seek medical treatment. Maybe if neglectful/abusive parents children died instead of being forced into medical care, those abused kids wouldn't grow up to have and abuse their own kids. End the cycle of abuse and neglect!*




*I do not support this particular slogan.

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Tue 04-01-2008 1:51AM 
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"Do it for the children!"

Anytime I hear something that is for the children, it's guaranteed to be 100% downright bullshit.

Think society knows better than parents on how to best care for children? Think of all the medical science (even from the past 20 years) that has been debunked as just plain wrong. Go back before 1950 and some of the medicine would be viewed today as just crazy and inhumane. How about getting a chunk of brain removed just because someone thinks you are acting a little odd. My grandparents remember the days.

Why doesn't the almighty government just come and pick up the newborns from the hospital? Obviously parents are just too stupid to actually raise kids these days.

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Tue 04-01-2008 2:20AM 
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Agentzak wrote:
"Do it for the children!"

Anytime I hear something that is for the children, it's guaranteed to be 100% downright bullshit.

Think society knows better than parents on how to best care for children? Think of all the medical science (even from the past 20 years) that has been debunked as just plain wrong. Go back before 1950 and some of the medicine would be viewed today as just crazy and inhumane. How about getting a chunk of brain removed just because someone thinks you are acting a little odd. My grandparents remember the days.

Why doesn't the almighty government just come and pick up the newborns from the hospital? Obviously parents are just too stupid to actually raise kids these days.


I think a distinction needs to be made here. I'm not 100% sure between what, but it looks like no matter how you cut it it will be somewhat subjective.

I think we can agree that there are situations where the health of the child would benefit from modern medicine and the parents actively deny such medicine. We can probably agree that at the ages we're considering, the child is too young to be considered fully autonomous and able to make their own decisions. Which would mean that no matter what the belief of the child (can't take blood, can't take antibiotics, whatever), someone else gets the final word as to what they will be subjected to as far as treatment goes.

So the argument then becomes, at what point are we willing to say the parents are crazy/negligent for not allowing their children to be treated with modern medicine? Since the child can't truly make their own decisions, they cannot be fully committed to a religion or any other set of rules that would deny modern medicine. Why should the parent be able to bind the child to such a religion or set of rules?

I am generally against paternalism, especially by the state... but I think this is one of those cases where *someone* needs to step in and take medical authority away from the parents and administer the treatment to the child.

There is a case where parents have a kid, bring them home, and the kid never poops. The kid gets really sick, but they refuse to take it to a physician and instead rely on prayer healing. They bring in prayer healing specialists to try and treat the problem, but the kid eventually dies. The state does an autopsy, and the kid died of of a bowel obstruction that could have been fixed with simple surgery (maybe not even that). In any case, the kid would have been fine - what right did the parents have to basically sacrifice their kid in the name of their religion, especially when the kid never had the opportunity to choose that religion?

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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Tue 04-01-2008 9:04AM 
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Agentzak wrote:
Think society knows better than parents on how to best care for children?


Just because you are capable of having sex does not mean your capable of raising a child.


I'm not saying the state should come up with a list of symptoms that you need to have the doctor check out. I hate someone telling me that I have to do something, even if it is good for me. For example the seat belt law, why should the state tell me that I need to be safer in the car? I'm not causing any higher risk to other drivers on the road. But if the state doesn't step in when a parent is incapable of caring for a child (including unable/unwilling to seek medical care) what good is that doing for the child? Obviously this one died. I couldn't care less about how an adult lives their own life.

In this case, you had a kid with a known condition, diabetes. **I'm not a doctor or in any way an expert** From my understanding, your body isn't capable of producing a certain chemical or something that regulates some other stuff in your body. It is a simple test to test your blood sugar and take actions to correct the problem when it occurs, if you are under a doctor's care.

Article wrote:
Mr Vergin said the couple, who run a coffee shop in Wausau, had blamed her death on their lack of faith.


So the daughter was killed because the parents didn't believe? *This may just be the author trying encourage a certain viewpoint, but really.


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 Post subject: Re: Parents heal their daughter through prayer
PostPosted: Tue 04-01-2008 9:10AM 
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FrankieM wrote:
Just because you are capable of having sex does not mean your capable of raising a child.



And if someone is too stupid to raise a child - the single most important instinct in the human psyche - do you really want the government to step in and preserve those genes?

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