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PostPosted: Tue 06-15-2004 1:04PM 
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Source: Delta Tau Delta
Skyhoper wrote:
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Since "under God" in the pledge is a violation of church and state in some peoples' eyes, let me list a few other things that must be changed or removed:

The inscriptions on the Lincoln Memorial
The inscriptions on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier
The grave markers at the Normandy American Cemetary and Memorial
The Washington National Cathedral
US state funerals
US Military Medals (Navy Cross, Army Distinguished Service Cross, Air Force Distinguished Flying Cross)
Hell, even my own Grandfathers grave
I could list a dozen more.


Imagine if the government came in, went to your grandfather’s grave (god rest his soul) and defaced/engraved Praise Allah or Pink Unicorns across it. I mean he was resting there decomposing, minding his own business when all of sudden a new faction did this. Of course this completely fine with you as because you understand that we do not have a separation of church and state and the rights of an individual mean nothing because it’s a public graveyard.

That may be a little over the top but I don’t see much difference in defacing your grandfather’s grave or the pledge of the allegiance.

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Where do you draw the line? Do you draw a line?

I don’t have to the line. It’s already been drawn since 1776.

http://www.jmu.edu/madison/gpos225-madison2/bill_of_rights_text.htm
They even got a picture up there for ya.


Thank you very much, but I have my own copy. Check your desk.

So you think we should remove the inscriptions from the Lincoln Memorial and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier? That we should replace all of the grave markers (Crosses AND Stars of David btw)?

And yes, that comparison is a bit of a strecth.


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PostPosted: Tue 06-15-2004 1:58PM 
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The point is, graves, cemetaries and headstones are services the government provides more for the veterans and their families than for the public. As long as a soldier* and/or his/her family can choose freely whether to have a cross, Star of David, or other religious symbol, or no symbol at all, then there's not a problem.

If you're visiting a military cemetary and have a problem with the religious symbols, perhaps you should take it up with the families, because ultimately it was their call, not the government's.


*soldier, sailor, etc.


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PostPosted: Tue 06-15-2004 2:16PM 
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So you think we should remove the inscriptions from the Lincoln Memorial and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier? That we should replace all of the grave markers (Crosses AND Stars of David btw)?


I not sure what you mean? Do you mean take away Lincoln's right to freedom of speech and expression, censor what he said? Maybe that part about all men created equal. Or do you mean deny individual soldiers and their family’s right to choose their own headstone? You completely missed the point of the “Under God” being in the Pledge and why it is illegal by all previous rulings and standards. It’s about individual rights and the freedom from the government imposing or establishing religion on its citizens. What secular purpose does it serve being in there? What purpose does it serve at all? Why do so many people want the government to deny their neighbors/fellow countrymen’s rights just to validate theirs?


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PostPosted: Thu 06-17-2004 4:04PM 
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You want to start quoting the Bill of Rights? Ok then.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....

I interpret this to mean "Congress will not make any laws promoting one religion over another. But we're not going to keep you from practicing these religions if/when you want."

Not an anti-religious government, simply a religiously-apathetic government.

I understand they don't teach much history here, but please remember that religious freedom was the very first reason people ever thought about having an America.

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PostPosted: Thu 06-17-2004 5:38PM 
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while it may be the easy way out, it saves the justices from the public humiliation and flaming that would probably follow if they actually ruled the pledge unconstitutional. Besides, I laughed when I read the story about it - the loser doesn't even have enough custody of his own kid to rightfully make any claims on her behalf....LOL

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PostPosted: Fri 06-18-2004 5:18PM 
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Dang you bagvwf... that's what I was gonna say.
You've got "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Now tell me how having the phrase "Under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance and everything else breaks "the Constitution."


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PostPosted: Sat 06-19-2004 5:31AM 
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That--and, I want to see if/when/where the Pledge of Allegiance is actually listed in United States Code. Or if not there, what makes it a legal document. Something tells me the Pledge isn't a law.

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PostPosted: Mon 06-21-2004 2:12PM 
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The pledge was originally written in the 1920's or so, by a (contain your disbelief) a Socialist Baptist minister. It started "I pledge allegiance to my flag..." and omitted "under God". Somebody found it and replaced "my flag" with "the flag of the United States of America". I don't know if it was codified in that form. Then, in 1954, during the Red Scare, Congress did codify it, except they added "under God". When President Eisenhower signed it into law, he said something very close to "everyday, now our children can show our nation's dedication to the Almighty." (too lazy to look up the exact quote).

It's not a law per se, but it is a law in the sense that the Flag Code is law.

In my opinion, it is clearly not ceremonial deism. Eisenhower isn't referencing a generic god; he is most definitely referencing the Judeo-Christian god. Its intent was to show our "superiority" to those "damn godless commie bastards".

Those of us who want it ("under God") removed from the pledge want it removed because we believe the government should show neutrality toward religion, not just as a Constitutional issue but as a policy that just makes good sense. I can't speak for others who want it removed, but I (and I suspect a large majority of people like me) would perceive something like "...one nation, under no gods..." as just a big violation as "under God".


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PostPosted: Mon 06-21-2004 6:56PM 
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[quote=zkissane]we believe the government should show neutrality toward religion[/quote]
Why? What harm does it do to anyone? They're not forcing it upon you, and they're not making laws regarding it. What is bad about religion?

Oh, and just because that's what you want, doesn't make the constitution against it.


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PostPosted: Mon 06-21-2004 8:41PM 
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What harm is it not to have it in the Pledge?

As I said, entwining politics and religion is bad enough, but religion and patriotism leads to really bad situations.

The Pledge (which is sanctioned by the government in its current form) makes it as though you cannot be patriotic or love this country without God. That's dumb. That's illegal, when the government is the one doing it.

Would you still support it if it said "one nation under Allah"? I bet not.

Religion should be an issue strictly among individual families.


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PostPosted: Tue 06-22-2004 8:54AM 


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I have a simple solution to this problem. This is something I thought of a long time ago and can't figure out why no one else in the schools haven't. Why not just let each student fill in the blank with what religious deity they belive in, if any. Say Johnny believes in God, so he would state the pledge of allegiance as "...one nation, under God..." If Billy believed in Budha, then when he said the pledge in class, he would say "...one nation, under Budha..." etc. This in turn allows freedom of religion in the classroom and I would think would make most everyone happy. Granted, this still doesn't solve the issue of the seperation of church from state, but is a starting place to making people happy.


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PostPosted: Tue 06-22-2004 10:39AM 


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the pledgs was originaly a part of a magazine ad campaign in the late 19th century to promote the worlds fair (chicago?) "under god" wasnt added untill 1954 when the knights of columbus pressured congress into adding the phrase. the under god wasnt an original part of the pledge, which in turn was never written to be an official pledge in the first place.


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PostPosted: Tue 06-22-2004 7:15PM 
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How exactly does the pledge make it so that you can't be patriotic without believing in God? No one thinks you're unpatriotic if you don't say the pledge. No, instead you're not patriotic if you don't want the government to listen in on your phone calls.


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PostPosted: Tue 06-22-2004 8:40PM 
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Well what about Jehovah Witnesses? I mean the ones I went to school with never stood up during the pledge. They aren't unpatriotic, they just don't believe in doing so.
I don't know if the pledge has ever been forced. I mean, "Susie do the pledge"... "no"..."now"...."no"..."Detention"...now see, that'd be extreme.
So a lot of this is taken way out of content.
I mean, what's next a gang saying the FLAG is unpatriotic b/c it has a rival gang's color in it? (ie, red v. blue, whatever)
So it starts with the pledge and it continues....

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PostPosted: Wed 06-23-2004 11:36PM 
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HAHAHAHA red vs blue.... i need to go watch some more..


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