So I was reading an older post, and found this quote. I just have to open my mouth.

"Yes did you ever think that at the same time you are draining money out of an underfunded education system as it is. Maybe instead of moving kids from the schools we should improve the schools they are in. Don't give me the but I shouldn't have to pay public school tax because my kid goes to private school crap. That is a fact known from the start and realize that anyone who owns property has to pay for Public education. Even if they don't have kids, where do they fit into that. Vouchers are incredibly detrimental to public schools, the teachers who devote their time to them and the kids who continue to learn in public schools. "

Underfunded schools? Please. If you take a job on the East side of St.Louis as a teacher, you will make close to $50K as a teacher, and get 1000$ to buy supplies for your classroom, vs. taking a job in the suburbs for almost $10K less. This compares a poor school district vs. a middle income district. Who out performs who? I'll tell you who, a good teacher, and a motivated kid. Besides that, either way you put it, we are spending ENTIRELY too much (more than we ever have) on education, and yet the results are not there. I think its from 2 main reasons.

1. I think its a fundamental problem with human nature. If XYZ is handed to you for free, most people will not hold it as dear to them, as someone whom has worked their whole life to obtain XYZ. What I mean by this is, I knew too many kids in high school etc, that could careless if they were in school.....could careless if they even learn anything. They were just a warm body sitting in the desk, paid for by tax dollars from everyone (well 95% paid by the top 10%). Talk about government waste. However, espeically in college, kids that work or take out loans to pay for school, seem to care a WHOLE lot more. I'm not saying lets privatize anything, just bringing up the point. People (kids AND parents) just seem to careless about education.


2. The Teachers Union. IMO, unions are absolutely worthless. Blah blah blah, they fight for this and that, and fair wages......The problem I have is that teachers are next to impossible to fire no matter how bad they are. Here at UMR, you get tenure, only after a thorough investigation of your teaching abilities is evalutated.... I've had some pretty piss poor teachers in High school. My second semester chemistry teacher had never even taken or taught chemistry before. If your teaching freaking chemistry, history, english, physics, MATH, etc, you should have at least a minor in that subject to teach it at a resonably high level (we'll claim that level is high school for shits and grins, and this is mostly for technical subjects, as who cares about english and grammar and spelling).

Unions were good 100 years ago when their were no laws governing employment, conditions, and wages. They do nothing but hold capable people back, and put slackers in the same category. Just ask my dad whom was a union carpenter from age 19 to 30. Just one more point on unions...and possibly the most silliest......my friends were baggers and cart pushers at Schnuck's and Dierberg's (Grocery Stores in St.Louis). Subsequently, they paid 110$ per month in union dues. These 16 year olds, gave 20% of their monthly income for "job security" cause they only made minimum wage! What a joke.

One final point. I think younger people are more liberal thinking because they haven't been out in the real world. They haven't had to sign over thousands of dollars a year for income tax or FICA or any of the other worthless taxes. They haven't had to pay for personal property tax, or any of the 19 different insurances people carry now a days. Nieve, uneducated, and shortsided. I've worked hard to get where I am....and I've seen plenty take for grantit (political incorrect - shit on) the numerous opprotunities given to them. This country is FULL of opprotunities to EVERYONE. I recieved next to nothing in scholarships, because I'm a white male, in a middle income family. Please. I think its time for some more Raegenonmics, government downsizing, handout elimination, cause I'm going to be paying real taxes come December.


And finally, I think us 80's babies are more conservative because of when we grew up. I was born 3 months into 1980, 28% something interest rates, gas prices through the roof, carter's recession, the Cold War etc..... Then we had 8 years of conservative Raegan. Ok so your wondering how this affected us toddlers etc. Well that created the atmosphere for which we lived 50% of our impressionable lives. That forced alot of us to grow up knowing I wasn't going to get the big He-Man fortress, or an army of GI Joe SR71s, unlike the 90s babies whom grew up under highly favorable economic times (baby boomers moved into their 30's, big money making age as you've got you 10 years experience in).

Socialism doesn't work. It didn't work in the Soviet Union, and it won't work here.

Anyways this is kind of incoherant so hopefully someone understands what I'm ranting about. I'm am a firm believer in Darwinism - survival of the fittest, Grow some balls, get motivated, evolve, do something, or move to France.

I'd like to show up all the liberals, and stage a huge protest, but I have more important things to do like work.

Giuliani in 2008 period.

I could not agree more....

Great post, just check up on the tenure issue at UMR. In reality it is much more about your political standing within a deparment. Teaching ability plays almost a zero role, if it's even actually brought up in the meetings where the vote really counts.

Bullshit. 100 years ago teachers made very poor wages. However, thanks in part to unions, they now make living wages. Unions do suck, just like any bueacracy sucks.

You know what really sucks? The government. I'll will pay over half of what I ever make towards supporting various government stuff. Some is good: roads, schools, science. Some is just stupid: bueacracy, military, homeland security. Does that mean we should just 'get rid of' the government? I don't think so, because I can't think of anything better to replace it with that everybody is going to agree on.


And if your high school teachers sucked it's because good teachers are rare. Good people in any area of expertise is rare.

The vast majority of people are grossy incompetent.

It all comes down to the classic problem of motivation. How do you motivate people to do good things (teach, work, be fair) and not to do bad things. Money just doesn't cut it.

And finally, Socialism has never existed. Not in the Soviet Union, nowhere. True socialism can only exist when the 'vast majority' of human civilization makes an effort to become so. At best the soviet union was totalitarian and oppresive, whereas socialism is supposed to be representative and free.

Couple points:

1. There are many more factors considered when awarding a professor tenure than just teaching ability. In fact, you'd probably find teaching ability (measured by evaluations) can be a small factor when determining if/when a prof gets tenure. From what I've seen grants received, committees, and research tends to be more important than classroom performance. You just have to remember the purpose of a university is to advance the fields of study, as well as train students in them.

2. Tenure at the elementary level are not worthless. In fact they tend to protect teachers from unfounded allegations from disgruntled students that would otherwise destroy their careers. I think you'd be surprised how many people accuse teachers of misconduct for no reason other than workload, or discipline in the schools. You have to remember elementary level education is required, so the vast majority of have no respect for the teachers or their own education, and will lie to their parents or the school’s administrators when they feel a teacher wronged them in some trivial way.

3. Teachers unions aren’t worthless either, and help to protect the teacher’s interests when pitted against an idiotic or greedy administration. For instance, my mom works at an elementary school that is currently going through contract disputes. This year their first offer was a 1% raise for all teachers for the next three years. Note this is much lower than inflation, meaning the teachers would be making less the longer they worked there. The contract was rejected with 90% of the teacher’s approval, and now they’re threatening to strike if they are not presented with a more reasonable offer. Had the union not been in place, the administration would have been free to gouge the teachers as was their original plan. You should also note my mom has been teaching there for eight years now, has a master’s degree, and only makes around $36k/year. She also has little to no yearly stipend, and is forced to buy classroom supplies out of her own pocket.

4. Nothing you learn in high school is “high level,” nor should you need a major or minor in the subject to teach it. In fact, most colleges cover all of the material offered in any high school by the end of the freshmen (or maybe sophomore, depending on high school) year. There’s no reason to require teachers to take advanced topics in a subject just to teach the absolute basics to people, when the teacher should be emphasizing in teaching or child psychology courses.

Taking your math example, why would a teacher have to know anything about solving partial differential equations, indirect proof techniques, or methods of mathematically modeling a variety of real world scenarios when their only purpose will be teaching students basic algebra or, at most, the fundamentals of calculus? You’re assuming anything covered in the core subjects in high school to be remotely advanced or high level, which had you majored in one of those core subjects you’d find high schools barely even scratch the surface of those subjects. I admit, it would be nice if secondary teachers had a degree (or minor) in their subject matter, but it’s simply not necessary.

And now, since you have nothing with which to defend yourself, I'm gonna kick your ass.

Seriously, the last time someone challenged Thomas Hobbes was when John Locke said man was fundamentally good instead of bad. But nobody has ever challenged the necessary concept of the social contract. Government, in some form, is essential, unless everyone is a morally-pure philanthropist. Believing this is stupid, so government is therefore necessary, and the accompanying bureaucracy, while often excessive, is also necessary.



You are promoted until you are incompetent. That's how it works. So yes, many teachers can't teach. As Woody Allen said, "Those who can't do, teach. And those who can't teach, teach gym."



Yes. The Soviet Union actually claimed to be communist. Either way, it wasn't.

However, socialism can succeed on small scales where religious codes restrict behavior sufficiently so as to not necessitate a government beyond public consensus. Have you ever heard of a Kibbutz? Have you ever heard of the Amish?

Did you ever consider how many teachers were the kids that took their public education for granted. Then decided they were going to college just because their friends were and they had no idea what kind of job they would get otherwise. So they go to college on someone else's bill (parents or scholarships) and get a degree in education because they can coast through just like they did in high school.

I'm hearing, 'Switch your major!'

Damnit, guess I'm going to have to actually get an engineering degree now.

My mom is a teacher. This is her 19th year teaching and she has a master's degree. She isn't rich and defenitly dosen't make $50k a year, even with career ladder added in. Around $40k a year. For the level of education she has and the experience she has she really dosen't make much money at all. Additionally, she will soon be at the point where she can get no more raises besides the 1% increase for inflation (which is more than 1% as stated above). Additionally she spends proably a grand a year out of her pocket on supplies for her classroom that the school dosen't cover. She also works much more than the 35 hours or so a week of class, often getting to school at 7 and leaving at 5. Then coming home and grading papers, as well as working on the weekends. She also put in alot of days during the summer.
We aren't poor. My mom will get a good retirement plan and decent pay for my area. Not "great" pay as suggested in the first post.

The voucher program appeales to people who have their children in private school. I'm against it of course. Not only does it take money away from the public schools, but the govenrment money it gives to private schools comes with government regulation. Thats right...it can harm both public and private schools. Additionally, with funding to public schools cut, the end result could be a network of private school educating most upper and upper middle class childeren with the lower class children attending what would be crappy underfunded public schools. Education could become a privlige of the rich instead of a right of everyone, as it was before the advent of well funded public schools as we have in this country.

I pay my taxes too. I'm also a middle income white male, born in '84. Last week i worked 59 hours, and all summer i proably averaged 50-55 hours a week to afford to go to UMR. Disposiable income is something i lack, i can afford what bills are left for school and not much else. Yet i still am somewhat left-leaning. It does seem that many people my age lack any kind of a work ethic, sense of value, or common sense. I actually feel sorry for many of them.

There is no socialist movement in this country. No one is trying to make this a socialist country. That is a common misconseption of many liberals by the more conservative people. Pure capatilism is a terrible thing. Read up on your history and look at the USA during the industrial revolution. Chances are you would have worked in a mill or mine for 70 hours a week, get crappy pay, and give it all back to whatever company you worked for at the company store and rent for your company house. Few if any opportunity for higher education beyond HS, if you didn't drop out to go to work. And if it wasn't that you would do susistance farming, working all day to grow enough to eat. Dosen't sound like fun to me. We owe it to the early unions and government regulation of industry that we have the huge middle class this country has now, and opportunities to succede if you want to. I do agree that modern day unions have become corrupt and their demands are sometimes unreasonable, however if they were removed you would have alot of people making alot less money, and they would have less money to buy products to fund the companies they work for!

Kinda funny how that works on the other side of the fence.

You recall that UMR issued a 7% increase in the rate of tuition to combat a 3% rise in inflation.

Yeah. Doesn't make much sense does it? The corporation is willing to overcompensate on accounts preceivable, but undercompensate on accounts payable.

Sounds like a money machine to me..

Scarf, What happened to your numbering? It’s as bad as your logic.
First of all Socialism works great, it works great in the United States, it works better in Canada, it kicks ass in Denmark. The USSR fell because of the totalitarian state, democratic centralism, and a command economy.
Second your numbers are so wrong it is sin. The average starting salary for teachers is around 30k. Yes it is true that Illinois teachers make about 10k more than Missouri teachers. But if you look at the cost of living index between the two this is exactly right the way it should be.
You say a good teacher and a motivated kid out performs… sure what is your point. Good teachers and motivated students work well together, I think most students understand this, you are doing nothing but supporting a already understood argument.
It takes money to pay teachers, naturally good teachers are going to expect compensation. And who motivates students, the students, peers, families, what does this have to do with your point at all. Nothing.
Next you go on to blame human nature for the education problem, what is your point, your suggestion, kill all people, or short of that brainwash the population?
Next your trouble with Unions is what? They keep people from being fired? Your buddies had to pay to join. You friends could have worked other places, nonunion places or at the very least the government did not force them to work at a grocery store. Your buddy likely had no real need for employment anyway, unless they were saving money for school. Oh and in that case, many Unions offer scholarships or forgivable loans, so in this case membership can be very helpful. You mentioned your father was a Union Carpenter, (other than the average 81K annual salary for union carpenters) and an eight thousand dollar scholarship opportunity for you as a child of a Union Carpenter, another eight to sixteen grand available just as a Union child, what are you complaining about.
Then you go on to complain about taxes, I mean really what’s the point, taxes don’t pay for education any more in Missouri, gambling does. And if you are from Missouri and you are complaining about not getting scholarships you have been sorry mislead, or just uninformed about all of the forgivable loan programs in this State. Between around 3k a semester in forgivable loans, bright flight, maybe a Pell grant, and departmental scholarship it is not difficult to get money for school at all with out great financial need. It sounds to me like you gave up early or did not try at all to find scholarships.
You contradict your self incredibly. You suggest young people are liberal and naive because they have not had to pay seeming unnecessary spoil, this directly contradicts you recollection of your friends paying Union dues at 16.

What’s your point? You don’t like liberals? What liberal things are you talking about you really have not addressed any specifically, nor have you really suggested anything specific. Hand out elimination, so your can pay less taxes? Tax reduction is the same thing as a hand out if you are already required to pay. So what are suggesting down size government, that does not directly have to do with socialism, nor how much you plan to pay in taxes.

Finally I hope you know Darwin did not come up with survival of the fittest. Darwin’s idea’s focus on evolution, adaptation, and cooperation; in this same way I hope you will adapt your thinking about what government, citizenship, and what life is about.

Please. Elimate Welfare, downsize a few departments and boom, opperating expenses go WAY down by saving on office space, (bloated governmental union) salaries, "business expenses" etc. Therefore, the overall tax money needed to cover the budget will be lower. Your telling me this wouldn't affect the amount I pay yearly in taxes.

I didn't understand your reasoning until I realized your a liberal. Never lower taxes, just find other ways to spend the F'N money.

The government never downsizes. It only grows. Is this healthy? Would it be feasible for Boeing to increase in size when it only has 1 contract for 2 planes a month? Of coruse not. To survive, any boehemoth must be dynamic, and for all intents and purposes our government is static. Being dynamic allows a company to streamline a get rid of waste and saves on those opperating costs. People can bitch and moan all the more they want about layoffs here and there. It is a vital thing to maintain a healthy company. If I get laid off, such is life. I'll just have to make sure I'm a vital part of the company, and if I'm not, I'll adapt so that I am.

and 81K wtf are you smoking. So carpenters make more than say an engineer? Really, think about what you said. They make half of that, unless they deal on the side. Thats the most outrageous inflated number I've ever heard of. Please back this up, so I can change my profession to be a carpenter, cause shit they will make more money than me with a masters degree.

Oh and what do you mean by the cost of living between MO and IL, vs having a 10K difference in salary? Cause it's gonna set you back way more to own a house on the missouri side vs. the illinois side. The tax rate for most things is maybe 1% higher, surely not 25% like the differences in salary. My numbers are accurate. Matter of fact, I have an ex, 3 friends, and 2 friend's parents I know that have commented on their salary. The COHOKIA IL school district is one of the highest paid school districts in the US. Perhaps it wasn't the best example, but it still gets the point accross.

There still needs to be some sort of gauge on individual performance......just like shitty carpenters build shitty houses and should be paid shitty....just like good engineers make GOOD money, cause they are good. Not because they belong to some general consenius, and that consenius says i will make X dollars just like everyone else. You take individualism out of the work place, and in my opinion you ruin any self worth or reason to go the extra mile at that job.

Oh and the 5K I got in Forgiveable MO loans over 4 years, hardly covers the 10K plus a year cost for UMR. Bright flight program was slashed......plenty of tuition increases since I've been here. I don't belong to any of those "special groups" which are earmarked for scholarships. I didn't write the best essay, I didn't have 1000 hrs of community service, so i missed out. Not from a lack of trying. Hell I just found out my 20K in student loans are UNSUBSIDIZED (this means I got the shittier of the 2 types).

To start out my rant: do some reading, Upton Sinclair's The Jungle. I really hate reading about all the bad, sick, disgusting things and even though I'm a guy with a romantic streak, I really dont like books where almost everyone DIES IN THE END. But the book galvanized support for government regulations. The Grapes of Wrath is another great example of unchecked capitalism that runs rampant. If we didnt have the better standards long fought for, a brilliant hardworking person could still never get anywhere. Why do people have to work multiple jobs just to survive?



So simply let them live on the street in abject poverty? I can agree that there certainly are many bloated government programs - if you really want to look at it, what program gets the most money of anything in the United States? Our Military. Before you jump on me and start trying to accuse that I dont care for people and let the terrorists walk all over me, think for a few minutes about our military. We spend more on our military then the next 27 (!!!!!!!) countries combined I'll get you multipule sources for that number later because I have seen it many and I'm sure that most of the conservatives on campus will try to jump me before thinking about it. We have more then enough troops to engage the ENTIRE rest of the world AT THE SAME TIME and still have plenty left in reserve. Start looking for fat to cut there 1st - though I will certainly concede missapropriation of funds and waste that should be cleaned up. I say we most definately need to force those that cause most of the actions/conflicts/wars to bear most of the cost burdens. Military contracts and defense spending is incredibly lucrative. There is little competition and no need to make things work properly - in fact, its better if it doesnt work as advertised because the contractor gains millions in funds to find the problems and then get paid even more to fix a flaw that shouldnt have existed in the 1st place!


The system we have continously attempts to balance the work you do and the reward you get for it. Bill Gates is obviously a gross example of it (whether you believe he stole the idea and got plenty of money for it or simply pioneered a global computing monopoly that strives to squash innovative ideas). I think Scarf was attempting to rally against affirmative action and the like, and some is definately needed and some needs to be done away with.

As far as loans and college funds are concerned, I have little help and I'm going to pay through the nose for the next bunch of years to pay back my loans. Where did alot of the great educational opportunities head to... Wait, they seem to have disappeared in the last couple years...I wonder what correlation that could be...Did the party running the country the last couple years have anything to do with it? And somehow they still managed to turn a surplus into an amazing deficit. And the "Raegenonmics" havent really worked - has our economy returned to an amazing boom? You can debate all youd like about where its at, but it still isnt anywhere near where it was. How is it after the tax cuts, the big CEOs have 7 figure salaries when their companies are nearly bankrupt and the investors are losing everything?

I think that the arguement about more conservative people now is really a funny one. You go that path now and what happens in 40 years at retirement age? Wait... even in less then 20 some years when all of our parents retire? The retirement of all of the baby boomers is going to put an enormous strain on the shredded remains of our medicare system. There may be a nice semi even distribution of Rep/Dem now, but in a few years they are going to be screaming bloody murder when all of the money is gone. For all of you conservatives, you had better be certain you ARE the best, smartest, etc... in your field because if you arent, and you lose your job you will be SOL, paying big taxes you cant afford with no medicare, welfare, ANYTHING to support you. I wonder if your christian charities or faith based initiatives will support you at all. You may scream downsize the government, but look at the good will do you if youre down on your luck. And you might be right about a sudden conservative movement as soon as you realize you have to pay that much in taxes, but right now I'm a poor college student. I'm looking for all the help I can get to help me pay, but the government seems to have removed much of the help - maybe if you werent that conservative earlier Scarf, you there might have been more money for you to get your hands on.

Me in 2020...If we dont get killed by machines from the future or I get run over in a mad riot over the shortage of handcream in Rolla...