This is a site I've been subscribed to for a while that has some really cool articles on it about Israel. They're as close as countries can get to best friends with us Check it out if you've got some time to read, some of the articles are pretty lengthy. If you just read one though, "Worse than North Korea" is the most shocking one for me, take a peek.

http://www.factsandlogic.org/outstanding.html

Also, I'd like to hear any of your opinions about Israel if you've got one?

My opinion on Israel? Well myself, Im athiest, however, I was raised as a Jew and taught Jewish history, so maybe its a religious brainwashing talking but not me, but IMO, good relations between the US and Israel are a must with the situation in the middle east. Even though I dont support the war, the US needs a good ally close to the region to help out, and since Israel is hands down the most hated country in the middle east, they need a good ally to help them out when they need it. And I'm also glad palestinian suicide bombings have decreased lately, the land belongs to Israel, there's nothing to dispute. Israeli's have been there for thousands of years and for all the shit the people have been put through over time, they deserve that tiny chunk of land they have

I wish I could settle how I feel about Israel.

Some days I feel that the Palestinians have a legitimate bone to pick with the Israelis. I don't feel that that land is Israel's "no questions asked". I don't ever approve of the methods the Palestinians use, however...

...which leads me to other days (usually after a Palestinian blows himself and a bunch of Israeli schoolchildren up) when I think that we should take the choker chain off of Israel and say "have fun, boys! If you find Osama, we get first dibs on him." It would beat buying oil from Saudi, that's for sure.

But then, I find revenge to be more acceptable than the average person.

The biggest problem that I have is that the cycle of violence didnt start with some of the current problems that face the palestinians - Poverty, poor housing, lack of good government, etc... - the violence started when they decided that Hitler didnt do a good enough job of it: "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." Arab League Secretary General Azzam Pasha, May 15, 1948. (http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/jerusalem/jerusalem76.html a pro israel site, but this is a true quote that I have seen again and again). Theres more on that but Ive lost my train of thought....

The interesting thing when you look at europe is an increasing number of arab/muslims/palestinians, and unlike in normal population increases, you dont have a like number of Jews to equal it out any more. Looking at the demographics more and more shows the increasing realization in europe that the politicians need to court the muslim vote for the increasing population and influence they have. And there seems to be a startling lack of jewish influence everywhere but perhaps Great Britian... I think if you look at the numbers there seems to be some correlation between a drop in the number of Jews and a certain time period of the 1930s to the mid 1940s... Its a startling drop caused by...caused by...anyone remember the Holocaust perhaps? Yet europeans seem to be content in blotting it from their memories and seem to be headed towards more and more anti-semitism. I think it might have been posted on seek a time ago, but a poll of some students in europe showed that they believe the second worst person in the last 100 years (worst as in mass murderers, genocidists, dictators etc...) ranking only behind Hitler, was our very own president Bush. Hey, I dont like the guy, I disagree with him a myriad of issues,and I dont want him to win this next election, but he really isnt a terrible guy - certainly not deserving of that label. Where were people like Stalin, Musolini, Pol Pot etc...? But it shows the trend of europe to fall more and more under the influence of one side of the story. There is only support for the arab view of the middle east in europe with no balance to it - because they did a good job of killing everyone like that during WWII.

Sorry to rant and become slightly less coherent towards the end. The only type of anti - government war/rebellion does not include the mass murder or terrorist targeting of civilians. I can certainly see some of the plight of many palestinians and arabs, but I cannot see any solution until they seek PEACEFUL means of resolving this. As long as they continue killing indiscriminately I believe they cannot be reasoned with and there really is no chance for peace. Osama bin Laden described a world ruled by muslims (perhaps him at the front) and declared death to everyone that does not believe as he does should be killed. The earlier Arab league and many arabs today believe in the complete extermination of Israel and every man, woman, and child in it. Those people will not listen to reason - we need all the allies we can get these days, and how can we not support Israel when the cry rings throughout the arab world for a jihad to kill every American and Israeli? As they say, dont take my word for it - look on the websites and forum posts of many arab sites, they are truely disturbing.

Israel is kind of an odd story, yet interesting (to history buffs). After WWII, the jewish people that were still around after WWII wanted a nation of their own. So we decided since the Middle East was under British control at the time that we would put them on/near their homeland. In doing so we took land from other Middle Eastern nations, mainly palistine. After british policing of the area ended an immediate war broke out in the area all targeting isreal. However, they had minimal weapons, but they were able to hold off and beat back the overwhelming forces of the other nations. We then decided that this wasn't fair so we armed Isreal to the teeth, latest airplanes, missles, bombs, even a nuclear bomb as the rumors go. Ever since then they have been a little borther to us and they continually support us and we do the same for them (as much as possible while still getting oil from other middle eastern nations).

Since Isreal is armed so much it wouldn't be a long fight if we let them go. And Which wouldn't be the worst of things and has actually happened before. Israel attacked Iraq and uncovered Iraq's attempt to get a nuke, by blowing up a uranium refinement plant.

That whole area is in turmoil and I doubt will cease to fight for atleast another century. They just can't forgive and forget. Reasons for killing in that area go back generations.

i think we should just start randomly bombing them. have a squad of guys go around planting bombs in random spots. just give them a taste of what they are doing. i mean, they have been on the offensive, so why not put them on the defensive for a change.

It is true that we have been on good terms with the Israelites for many years. However, this is only to be expected whether you look at it trough a biblical viewpoint or through a non biblical point of view. The nation of Israel was destroyed and it population was scattered throughout the world. One of the main contributors to the Israelites becoming a nation again was the United States. In addition we contribute millions yearly to Israel to help with their defense. However there is one condition placed on this money, they must spend in on the United States. This benefits both nations. They obviously get the best military equipment and thousands of jobs are saved in the United States. When you look at it though a biblical point of view there are many chapters that show the strength Israel and her allies, even if there is only a handful.

Deuteronomy 20
When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you. 2 When you are about to go into battle, the priest shall come forward and address the army. 3 He shall say: "Hear, O Israel, today you are going into battle against your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be terrified or give way to panic before them. 4 For the LORD your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory."

The United States weather you agree or disagree was founded upon Christian values. With that said it is only natural for the United States to help Israel, the Lord’s chosen people.

I hereby hijack this thread.

The US was not founded on Christian values. It was not founded on the 10 Commandments. It was founded on ideas from people like John Locke and Thomas Paine, and from things like the Magna Carta.

Pay no attention to that ticking sound in the corner.

In 1490 to 1492 Columbus set out to find a new world. According to his personal log, his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was to “bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens.”

November 11, 1620 The Pilgrims signed the Mayflower Compact. In this document the words “For the glory of God and advancement of ye Christian faith…” appeared.

In the summer of 1776 the Declaration of Independence was written and signed. “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.”

In September 17, 1787 the Constitution of the United States is finished. At least 50 of the men who framed the Constitution were Christians.

11 of the first 13 states required faith in Jesus Christ and the Bible as a qualification for holding public office.

James Madison, the architect of the federal Constitution and the fourth president said, “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

President Washington spoke of God in his Inaugural Address. “My fervent supplications to that Almighty Being Who rules over the universe… “

To say that the United States was not founded on Christian values is foolish. Even today Christianity can be found in the government. Courts are an excellent example of this. From the ten commandments that have hung on the walls to the giving of the oath where someone places their hand upon a bible while raising the other hand and stating an oath to God.

Do you remember a time when children use to say the Pledge of Allegiance in class to start the day? I can remember those days.

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Sounds barbaric, racist, and self-centered to me.



Note that both this and the Columbus events had little to do with the founding of our nation, other than to supply it with warm white bodies.



My parents created me. Prove that by "their Creator" they meant "the Judeo-Christian god". Merely proving they were Christian doesn't cut it.
Also, check out this passage from the Declaration:


Again with the racism, eh?

But whatever, the Declaration carries no force of law now, nor did it after the Revolutionary War.



Show me where the Constitution says "this nation is founded on Christianity."

Show me any appearance of the words "Jesus", "Christ", or "God". Sure, the date says "in the year of our Lord, 1787" but that's how dates were made official sounding at the time. If it was so important to the Founding Fathers, why didn't they put a big fat Christian fish or whatever in it?


That's patently illegal now:
(emphasis mine)



FAKE QUOTE ALERT!
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/misq1.htm

David Barton is a known fabricator of quotes showing support for Evangelical Christian positions, from the US's founding to evolution.



And we're sure he's referring to the Judeo-Christian god how....?



As far as the commandments go, only 2 are directly codified in law (killing and stealing). In general, lying isn't criminalizable unless it's under oath. So the Commandments are hitting 25% (I give the false witness one a half a point) in being supported under US law. The rest...unconstitutional and/or unenforceable.

And the oath to God isn't required for any public office. It's just added (by the individuals entering office, not anyone or anything else) out of tradition.



I remember the original words to the Pledge, written by a Baptist minister:

"Under god" wasn't added until 1954. Seems a little late to be evidence of our nations founding, no?

So are you saying that what the United States is doing right now as we speak is barbaric, racist and self-centered? We are currently attempting to implement our ideals as a nation onto another, Iraq.

Yes of course, what was I thinking? Oh now I know. If Columbus never landed on this land now known as the United States then others would not have followed in his tracks. Heck who knows, this land could have been colonized my some other nation. Columbus did help in the forming of this nation.

Well good for you. None the less those words are written in the Declaration of Independence. Need proof?
http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

True, in the time and age that we live in it is considered to a point to be racist. However, it was not in those days. Also the words Black and other select words used by people are considered to be racist. Now here is a challenge for you. Try to hang out with a group of black people, dark skinned people if you prefer, and listen to them. See if they don’t call themselves Blacks or something else that can be taken as racism. The point is that racism is everywhere and most of the time it is meant to be racist, don’t expect a document written by men to be any different.

How about I show you that the people who created the Constitution were Christians. This country was founded on men and women who wrote documents. We were not founded on documents alone.

I was under the impression that we were talking about the foundations of the United States not the current status.
(emphasizes my point)

Hmmm is it really fake? Well I did some looking into the matter. It seems that there are a lot of people who believe both ways. So here are two web pages that have something to say about this. One is a secular page and the other is a government page.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/columns/ ... adison.htm
http://www.house.gov/pitts/press/commen ... dments.htm
Even the secular page says that there is a chance that James Madison said this. For me I will trust Congressman Joe Pitts who is more likely to know the facts.

Well I guess you’ll have to read it for yourself and come to your own conclusion.
http://www.pbs.org/georgewashington/mil ... _read.html

Where the heck did this come from? When I stated “the ten commandments that have hung on the walls” I simply mean that many courts have a picture of the ten commandments hanging on the wall. Well at least until the ACLU started to complain.
http://www.ten-commandments.us/

That may be true but try taking the stand in court and not saying the oath.

True, but you are obviously not just conceren with the just the founding of our nation.
Here is an example.

But since you are correct in it not being part of the foundation you can disregard the Pledge of Allegiance.

Oh, I'm sorry. By "[t]hat's patently illegal now" I meant "that's been patently illegal since the formal creation of the United States of America by the Constitution."

I consider the ratification of the Constitution by the states to be the "founding of our nation". Maybe the Declaration too, but the explorers and settlers that landed 200 and 250 years before the Revolutionary War and the ratification of the Constitution should hardly be considered "founders" of our country, IMO.

Imagine a world in where instead of Columbus a Russian (or anyone from a different country) founded this land. From there hundreds of pilgrims from that nation decided to seek new land for whatever reason. From there colonies start to spread thought the land. Eventually they get the idea to crate states and from there they will unify the states into one nation while still keeping a different identity for each state. If this situation happen instead of the actual happenings we would not be considered Americans and this would not be known as the United States. Although Columbus and various other explorers are not commonly known as “Founding Fathers” they still helped in the finding of this great nation.

Yeah... sorry to say z, but all your counter-points were pretty much dumb and had nothing to do with what he said.